Male To Eunuch, Asexuality and Gender Nullification

February 13, 2011

WARNING SOME LINKS VERY GRAPHIC

Fast on the heels of the Trans community in the social political realm of surgical gender body modification is the MTE (Male To Eunuch) community.  Formerly isolated MTEs (non-transgender males who have their testicles removed electively), “Nullo” and “Smoothies” (non-trans males who have both testicles and penis removed for a smooth completely genital-less appearance*) have formed strong communities since the advent of the internet and are becoming increasingly activist in lobbying for medical/surgical services that are currently offered only to those males who have a conflicted  “internal gender identity”. MTE’s say the fact that they retain their male identity should not limit their access to the same medical and surgical services offered to transgender males with genital dysphoria.

Clip from “American Eunuch” a 2003 Sundance Film Festival documentary about MTEs. WARNING GRAPHIC

Nullos and MTE’s often seek castration and penectomy from surgeons in Thailand and India, and a few SRS providers in the US who have been willing to forgo the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care which were set up for MTF and FTM clients, but not for MTE’s who cannot meet their requirements (such as living in the opposite sex’s social gender role for a year) simply because they have no interest in undergoing social gender reassignment. Some US states allow chemical castration and Texas allows voluntary surgical castration for criminal sex offenders but not to lawful citizens which MTE’s assert is unfair.

Many MTE’s and “smoothies” report wanting to remove their genitals since early childhood, and some seek out desperate remedies for their surgical desires, either attempting self-castration, or seeking out the illegal services of “cutters”: self-styled underground surgeons who will perform castrations and penectomies in hotel rooms using substandard dirty equipment, often with tragic results.

Why do MTEs and Nullos want to be castrated? Their narratives vary, from a typical one here: “ I became a eunuch because I had an overwhelming desire to be castrated. I started out cutting my scrotum and for a few years, I never considered castration, but somewhere along the way, my desire/fantasy changed and I couldn’t stop thinking about getting castrated. I couldn’t control the desire and finally got castrated. It wasn’t to control my sex drive, it was a desire I couldn’t control, I’d go to bed thinking about it and wake up thinking about it. Maybe my desire for castration was a result of sexual frustration or maybe it was my way of finding some sort of weird sexual satisfaction, I don’t know, but I had to be castrated and finally was castrated. “

Other MTE’s and self described “Neuters” seek genital nullification or castration for the purported  “Eunuch Zen” described as a feeling of peacefulness and calmness that occurs after the removal of one’s genitals. Some Nullos retain some sexual pleasure in the prostate area, some do not, and according to one report “Some of us who have had had total removal of the penis nonetheless experience almost perpetual arousal at times.”

There is a long history of MTEs through the ages, but only since the internet have MTEs Smoothies and Nullos been able to share voices worldwide. Talula of Eunuch.org says “We need, as a eunuch community, a medical way to say ‘Yes! I want to lose my testicles!’ without getting sexual reassignment surgery. People will do it themselves if there’s not an alternative,” he says. “I know. I know because I did it.”

(*Some Nullo purists contend a “true” Nullo undergoes nipple excision as well as castration and penectomy for total “smoothie” effect)

102 Responses to “Male To Eunuch, Asexuality and Gender Nullification”

  1. FCM Says:

    WHAT. THE. FUCK.

    i have never heard of this in all my life. why arent the trans politickers interested in this one, i wonder? why arent they writing about this on feministe?

  2. Canadian Says:

    I think this along with Transgenderism and BIID(Body Integrity Identity Disorder) are the same issue. How do we deal with body dysphoria in all of it’s forms? Do we accept and accomodate their demands that they be allowed to express their “true identities” or do we help them deal with their dsyphoria in a healthy way?

    On a side note…I could use some help over at Dirts blog, drop in now and again ; )

    • GallusMag Says:

      Yes and I’m waiting for those BIID people to call out that pesky privilege of the cis-disabled. ;)

    • GallusMag Says:

      I guess they could be treated the same way as other body dysphorias. (Anorexia, etc.) Some transsexuals believe a combination of talk therapy and pharmaceutical treatment for OCD and Depression, as outlined here:
      http://www.chrisspagani.com/gender/index10.html

      • RoseVerbena Says:

        Exactly! The whole range of body dysphorias are, in my opinion, different parts of the same elephant.

        Treat them for OCD. Treat them for depression. Treat them for anxiety. Help them heal the self-hate — don’t mutilate them!

        I developed an obsessive hatred of my forehead when I was ten that persisted for several years. In hindsight, this was a manifestation of my extreme anxiety and depression after my parents’ super-ugly divorce and after being targeted by a sexual predator while riding my bike on Easter Sunday — and my parents wholly inadequate response.

        I developed this complete fixation on how “horrible” my forehead was and how much I “hated” it. I would pull my hair down to cover it and cringed at the thought of anyone seeing it. I was, in a word, nuts. I was projecting all this hate at a perfectly normal part of my body as a way of channelling all my terror/anxiety into something I could manage (how much easier to hate my forehead than to feel and express rage at my parents and the uncontrollable monsters “out there” in the terrifying world?)

        If I had developed the same negative fixation on my budding breasts would it have been helpful for a doctor to lop them off!?! Of course not! That would have been medical malpractice of the highest magnitude.

        I fear that the inmates have taken over the asylum when it comes to this whole movement towards chopping off body parts to feed/enable/placate what is so obviously a MENTAL DISORDER. When I heard that the little “trans girl” Montoya told his father, “I hate my penis” I just wanted to sob. That child needs HELP, not being co-opted into the whole trans-crazy political correctness maelstrom.

        By the way, forty-five years later, I can’t dredge up a single negative thought or feeling about my forehead. My forehead is fine. It’s a healthy, normal forehead — and Bobby Montoya’s penis is a perfectly healthy, normal penis — and Chaz Bono’s breasts and uterus were perfectly healthy and normal, too.

  3. Noanodyne Says:

    It’s perfectly natural to want to look like a Ken doll, Mag. It’s the eunuch brain, you know, and obviously one of the three-hundred-and-twenty-one (or so) sexes in humans.

  4. Noanodyne Says:

    One quibble I do have, though, is conflating this with asexuality. I have a lot of respect for “ace” folks and read a number of asexuality blogs. It is they who have a right to be pissed off about this crazy crap being mixed up with their thoughtful sexuality/romantic choices.

    • GallusMag Says:

      It is a confusing conflation. (But it’s not my conflation, it’s a self-identifier). There is quite a bit of cross-over. And I guess linguistically it makes sense in regards the body mod aspect: transsexual, cissexual, assexual, as opposed to transgender, agender. By “makes sense” I mean it’s consistent? Not that it’s optimal.

      • Noanodyne Says:

        Yeah, I knew it wasn’t your conflation, that’s why I think the ace folks should be on this. The gender(-less) trenders will take over their community next.

    • pmsrhino Says:

      Funny story, my cousin is asexual and apparently mentioned this at work to a customer (an older lady) and the lady stopped, confused, and asked, “Does that mean you’re… missing parts?” which caused my cousin to bust out laughing.

      Seems conflating asexuality with missing parts isn’t just for eunuchs.

    • Akira Says:

      I’m the resident asexual commenter here (when I actually comment, that is), and whilst I was first taken aback, it really isn’t that big of a deal. We already have transgenders and creepy fetish weirdos trying to enter our community, albeit not quite with the same fervor of M2Ts trying to co-opt the lesbian identity, or even F2Ts acting like the most stereotypical gay men to ever exist. I guess we asexuals just aren’t lively and sexy enough for them…

      But, yeah, it can get annoying when people assume asexuals are a bunch of freaks who mutilate their genitals and live a celibate lifestyle because of it.

  5. Rachel Says:

    Men are fucking creepy.

    • Noanodyne Says:

      pretty much sums it up


    • Best comment I’ve seen all day.

    • Umut Says:

      How is it “creepy”? It’s disturbing, sure. But creepy? They’re not hurting anyone but themselves. They obviously have serious mental issues. Do you think their desire to remove their genitals is somehow impeding on your life? Do you think they should have had the good manners to consult *you* before they went through with the procedure? Are you indignant at how they didn’t think about poor old you before they cut off their nads? Oh, it must be so hard for you when a man you don’t know removes his genitals for his own personal reasons. Boo hoo.

      I thought feminists would want men to castrate themselves? I thought feminists would be praising eunuchs for their desire to remove “the evil bit” of their anatomy (the penis and testicles)?

      Please tell me what you dislike about male eunuchs. Do you also dislike asexual males?


  6. I saw a documentary about something like this on Cable TV here once, it had a guy who was a self described sex addict and a young man who thought he was a woman (when he was not.)

    The former actually castrated himself, and discovered that his testosterone levels had dropped to the lower end of normal (instead of below normal, as he had hoped) and the latter made his mother go with him to get himself castrated and then half-arsedly said he regretted it.

    There were a few other men in there, but those were the two that really stood out, by no coincidence, they were both middle class, white men: self-castration man was in his late thirties, early forties maybe, underground surgeon castration was about 19 I think and had spent a lot of time online at TG communities.

    I wonder indeed why these men having their rights impeded on aren’t writing at feministe indeed.

  7. FAB Libber Says:

    I have to echo FCM, what the fuck?!

    MTE (Male To Eunuch)
    Initially when I started reading, I thought you had invented a new term for MTF (which should at the very least be MTW). But, I might be a troublemaker and call them all MTEs now.

    • GallusMag Says:

      LOL you should see the pictures I almost posted before I went with the Ken dolls, lol.
      I get a ton of google searches for this post from men seeking “non-transgender castration surgeon” and the like.

  8. Frances Blaikie Says:

    Maybe we should start calling mental illness “mental illness” and stop subsidizing it.

    • noanodyne Says:

      What are you, a radical or something? ;-)

      We’ve been so afraid to call this what it is and address it at that level. Yes, it is about damn time for that!

    • Alto Says:

      Or just call it “personal preference” and stop subsidizing it.

      Whose to say these people are “hurting themselves”, based on whose concept, whose standards of “hurt”? I do think anyone considering this should be very, very clear about whether they really deep down want this or not.

      “Gender” used to just be a physical term, not an identity term. Categories like “Gender identity” and “mental illness” are overcomplicating things. If someone wants to change their body that’s their business, just like if someone wants to buy a certain car or wear certain clothing. That doesn’t mean they have a right for it to be subsidized. The “mental illness” here is people believe they are powerless over their wants so they elevate them to needs and then sabotage their lives as long as they haven’t met their wants/’needs’. It’s fine to want things that don’t harm other people. Since harm is relative to the subject of it if deep down you really want something in light of the consideration of your whole consciousness it’s not harming yourself. However, insisting these wants are needs when you are able to live just fine without it is pure mental gymnastics. Insisting you have a mental illness that makes you need it and pointing to brain chemistry(they will when the brain scan studies come out) is just more mental gymnastics. Of course how you think about things is going to change the composition of your brain. Brain chemistry involved in something does not make it not a choice. We take it for granted but every moment we are alive we are making choices about what to do with our brain chemicals. Anyone who feels they don’t know how to control themselves needs to read about psychology and neurology themselves and figure out what things will stimulate and construct(esp. nutrition) these chemicals. Then in everyday life you have more choices about how to fulfill these needs, because you are aware of them.

      • Alto Says:

        I also think it is inappropriate for this to be offered as medicine. Sure a person could live a healthy life without it, it’s not essential, but it’s also not essential to health to remove it. It should be seen in the same category as getting a “tattoo”, something people don’t need but that some people do for personal experience or expression.

        This along with any plastic surgery is the medicalization of wants. No wonder health care is becoming so expensive. A want is not a medical need.

        While I’m fine with adults choosing this, there should absolutely be an age limit on any procedure that permanently alters a child’s body except when it is something medically necessary(like cochlear implants for example) or if we’d be missing an opportunity that won’t come up again in adulthood(i.e. there’s a disorder that only causes mental retardation if the person is not fed a certain protein pill from birth, it’s reasonable to give that to the child even without their consent since it’s reasonable to assume without knowing otherwise that the end result will be what the child would have wanted).

        It’s ridiculous that we now have children being approved for mtf therapies. We don’t let kids get tattoos. In both cases they are not mature enough to count on them to truly know if such permanent things are what they want to live with for the rest of their lives.

  9. Pebbles Says:

    Wow it must be great to be so perfect that you can cast scorn on others and cackle like Hyenas. ¬_¬

    Your willing to mock and sneer and say they shouldn’t be allowed to do that to themselves but you don’t offer alternative solutions to what people with those disorders can do, Some of them nearly kill themselves going to dodgy back street “surgeons”
    I’ve met eunuchs and heard their varied stories most of those who are motivated by sexual fetish aren’t interested in going through with the whole thing as eliminating testosterone kills sex drive even if they toy with the idea.

    • FAB Libber Says:

      So your view is that it is all perfectly sane and healthy eh Pebbles?

      All other mental illnesses, the patient does not get to call the shots for harmful and self-damaging treatment. There is a reason why reputable surgeons will not do this shit for them.

      Get a grip on reality there Pebbles.

      ~Hyena #294

    • Noanodyne Says:

      You want us to offer “alternative solutions” to people who have the desire to butcher their bodies or having someone butcher it for them? OK, here’s the solution: DON’T, because it’s unhealthy, unnatural, dangerous, deranged, and disordered. Get mental health treatment like the millions of other people who suffer from mental illnesses that cause them to hurt themselves. Imagine that. But the problem really isn’t that people don’t know about that solution. It’s that some people believe their fetishes are so very, very important and meaningful that they should be taken seriously by everyone and normalized to the rest of society and they should be able to have these surgeries paid for by insurance and blessed by the medical establishment. And we’re simply calling bullshit on that little narcissistic theme park. Sorry.

      • Pebbles Says:

        Fetish?… Right ya whatever ¬.¬ like I went through this crap hurting those I love just to jack off in a dress.
        Convincing you otherwise is pointless because I’m sure to you I’m just a Crazy perverted man who lies to cover his crimes.

        I did goto 2 psychiatrists they performed
        They said I was Gender Dysphoric and that transition is the treatment.

        Not Narcissistic
        Not Schizophrenic
        Not Sexually deranged

        If they’d put a magic pill on the desk that would have made me happy as man I’d have gobbled it in a heartbeat.

        But no such alternate treatment exists to science or psychology.

        As crappy as it is begin a transwoman Least I’m psychologically stable and work as a productive member of society as opposed to spending my days numbing the pain hedonistically wishing I was dead.

        So come on harpies who criticize and cackle so much, Make with the goods provide OPTIONS how do I make my Gender Dsyphoria go away?
        Then I will repay my debt to you by living as a man.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Pebbles I’m sorry you were so abused by the two psychiatrists you visited before deciding to drug and mutilate yourself. Of course there are alternate treatments, Cognitive Therapy with treatment for OCD and depression. Tran activists are heavily investing in preventing further studies from being performed, as are the practitioners who make a very nice living drugging and carving healthy bodies, as well as those lobbying and regulatory groups who rubber stamped such butchery years ago and now have no choice but to cover their ass by continuing.
        So, I am happy to have helped- now you know about alternate treatment. Welcome back to the reality based community!
        Really, did you ever think about getting other professional opinions or doing research on your own? If the first 2 psychiatrists you visited recommended lobotomy would you have gone along with that?

        BTW calling women “harpies who criticize” is a very misogynist male statement. Women only feel like “harpies” and “hyenas” to men like you who hate women, especially when the women don’t agree with you or are critical.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Also, why are you posting about your transsexual woes in the Nullo thread? Nullos are not transsexual (although they are both paraphillias) which you would know if you had read the article.
        There is a strong correlation between transsexuals and masochism however, so thats another commonality. For example 25% of males who die of auto-erotic asphyxiation die wearing women’s garments.

      • FAB Libber Says:

        Thanks for highlighting the transmisogyny* Mag. I like to keep pointing out that the namecalling is in one direction only, and it is not the radfems doing it.

        Also, excellent point on the labotomy too.

        *transmisogyny, does not mean what you think it means.

      • Pebbles Says:

        I live in the UK so and official help comes from the NHS.
        One of them offered me CBT I asked what it was. They mentioned it only worked for transsexuals under specific circumstances.
        He then told me I was neither of the circumstances. So he stopped talking about it.
        I’d be curious to give it a go but nobody will even try. Never-the-less I can look into it.

        Lobotomy? Honestly If it had evidence it worked against GID I would take it.

        Why am I acquainted with a number of eunuchs?
        After a doctor who shared your sentiments and dismissed me out of hand I went through drug dealers to get hormones + blockers to ease the dysphoria but in doing this I began to look like a female, They wanted more than just money… I refused.
        I sought out the eunuchs to see if they could give me alternative options of eliminating my male hormones without becoming a prostitute.

        my feelings and actions having a sexual motivation dosen’t make sense I’d have to have every sexual fetish under the sun A position you imply is true.
        How it feels to me is GID is a fear. A fear of Becoming a man/Begin a man. It’s a much more a simplistic explanation for why alot of transwomen act the way they do.

        My insult wasn’t intended to be sexist I was calling you out on your attitude of laughing manically at people whom you say in your own works are suffering from a widely mistreated/mishandled mental illness.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Yes I’m glad you’re going to look into it. Slightly more of an involved treatment than the lobotomy you say you would immediately embrace, but surely with a better outcome. As stated in the link upthread the recommended treatment is cognitive behavioral therapy in TANDEM with treatment for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and depression.

        And while you may not have meant to be sexist calling women harpies and hyenas, you did it reflexively as a result of your woman-hating male conditioning.

        At any rate, best of luck to you in getting treatment. If the NHS refuses to cover the CBT and OCD/depression treatment, maybe you can file a high profile lawsuit- that way not only will you get appropriate treatment but you will also raise public awareness of how the NHS is railroading patients into SRS without offering alternatives. Best of luck to you in your recovery.

  10. m Andrea Says:

    This subject is beyond priceless, oh lourde have mercy. People will briefly mention eunuchs in various comment threads, but this. Whoa. We need a whole lot more posts on this subject. Just spend aaaaaaall day asking why transgendered people cruelly ignore the needs of these wholesomely sensible gentlemen because frankly, this heretofore missing piece would fit rather nicely under the trans umbrella as a glory and testament to the magical fluidity of gender.

    Male To Eunuch just makes their raging insanity a tad too obvious. I’m not kidding, this subject is priceless. Praise lourde.

  11. Purplerage Says:

    I couldn’t agree more with the ”men are fucking creepy” comment. I love your blog by the way!

    Apparently the ancient Phonenician deity Astare has been ”re-claimed” by some as a queer positive deity. Speaks volumes.

    In ancient times, in the Near East, men would worship Astare at her temple by engaging in auto-castrastion whilst at ”the height of an orgiastic rite.” The auto-castrated men were then said to have run through the streets hurling their severed members in through someone’s window (or doorway?), the householder was then expected to provide the man with female attire.

    Men long have accused women of being castrating b****es (if only!), because it’s only too obvious castration has always been deeply rooted in phallo-patriarchal cultures and very much in the hands of men (literally and figuratively)!

    • FAB Libber Says:

      In ancient times, in the Near East, men would worship Astare at her temple by engaging in auto-castrastion whilst at ”the height of an orgiastic rite.” The auto-castrated men were then said to have run through the streets hurling their severed members in through someone’s window (or doorway?), the householder was then expected to provide the man with female attire.

      On a practical level, those houses nearest the temple would have had a high turnover of occupants. Who wouldn’t move, with severed members being chucked through your door on a regular basis?

      Just ewwwww.

      • Purplerage Says:

        I guess the severed members might have been a tasty treat for any dogs that happened to be in the vicinity??

  12. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Reminds me of that UFO cult that killed themselves once the Hale-Bopp comet came by…they had themselves castrated..but then how do you pee? what level of weirdness folks will go to..when will this crap stop????
    Ever since the Cult of Cybele, men have tried to assert themselves into women’s spaces and places, often eventually overrunning them, or even another level of control over bio-female women, much like the MTF’s try to dicktate to the Dyke community these days and infiltrate and coopt us.

    The eunuchs controlled the women in the harems, and also eventually replaced the Priestesses to the Goddess, till it became an all bio male priesthood like today worshipping male only gods that deny the earthy sexuality and naturally bleeding bodies and mysteries of womonkind…because they are left brain and asetic and above all that messyness of passion and desire and connection to the Earth.

    • Umut Says:

      …And the oneness of nature and the Goddess and leaves and the trees and pebbles and Stonehenge and my uncle’s left slipper…or something.

  13. Soran Says:

    Full disclosure: I have considered myself mtf transsexual for my entire life, and can’t come up with a better description. In my head I see a butch woman. I don’t like pink or heels or dolls or any of that. I know that ‘gender’ is BS, but there is some apparently-permanent contradiction between my body and my mind. I don’t like sex of any kind.

    Nobody is obligated to take any of the above seriously, and if you consider me a man you are not exercising ‘cis privilege’ because there is no such thing.

    This is what I actually wanted to ‘say’: Testosterone, in my purely subjective opinion, is a poison that has harmed billions of people (mostly women). Woman or not, I want this shit out of my system. Is it such a bad thing that there are other men who reject it? Can women (assigned at birth) benefit from this trend?

    Or maybe the extreme breadth and fluidity of the human mind is simply rendering the human body obsolete, and we’re going crazy trying to escape it? All of this seems to boil down to the human body itself, which was ‘designed’ by blind processes that had no conscience. This is the same infallible ‘nature’ that failed to give women vagina dentata.

    I just don’t understand why we’re assuming that ‘sanity’ means accepting an evolutionary accident (by which I mean all of human biology) as our ‘correct’ mode of being. Also, why can’t we be crazy? I’ve seen people’s overall well-being benefit from all kinds of nonsense – Christianity, Scientology, obsessive gardening, the works. Doesn’t mean we should be doing SRS on teenagers, but if people can’t be given free will over their own bodies (up to and including suicide) then it really doesn’t matter whether they’re free in any other respect.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Hi Soran. I hate to be critical but the truth is, it’s been quite some time since a male-born person has posted an interesting comment on my blog, that isn’t the same old rehashed transgender borg cult-speak. It’s often quite tedious I must admit, and even for my trans readers too I think (the ones that read here have heard all that shit before). So I really have to thank you for your interesting thoughtful comment. Welcome.
      Hopefully people will respond to your comment I am short of time at the moment.
      Incidentally, this post is BY FAR the most popular post on my entire blog. Come on Guys- I know you’re reading it! Go ahead and comment, I only delete sexist comments.

  14. SheilaG Says:

    Soran, that was a thoughtful comment. And perhaps T is a poison. Whatever it is, it is unfortunately M to Trans are attacking the very group that finds them horrifying in the extreme.

    So the best that can come out of this, is for all male to trans to work on MALE society…. to challenge male authority, to leave women alone.

    Male who transes will know that like Columbus, you bring harm to the native peoples. When you enter female land, female sensibility, you still cannot escape the male …. and no, you don’t have benefit to bring radical feminism, you have ruin intentional or not.

    Attack the patriarchy of men’s worlds, challenge them. Leave born women to our own liberation from male anything.

  15. Soran Says:

    Warning…looooooooong post.

    I’m not sure if there’s a quote feature, but…

    SheilaG wrote: “Soran, that was a thoughtful comment. And perhaps T is a poison. Whatever it is, it is unfortunately M to Trans are attacking the very group that finds them horrifying in the extreme.

    So the best that can come out of this, is for all male to trans to work on MALE society…. to challenge male authority, to leave women alone.

    Male who transes will know that like Columbus, you bring harm to the native peoples. When you enter female land, female sensibility, you still cannot escape the male …. and no, you don’t have benefit to bring radical feminism, you have ruin intentional or not.

    Attack the patriarchy of men’s worlds, challenge them. Leave born women to our own liberation from male anything.”

    Wow, I really have to apologize for the long-windedness below. I don’t have a great deal of emotional intelligence to apply to my situation. The radical feminist critiques of trans culture help me apply my analytical intelligence instead. It’s calming, in the same way as being around other trans people (especially those who don’t like the ‘community’). The trans community weirds me out because of the high heels and the makeup and the drag shit, and radical feminists are the only other people who seem to see this. It’s utter doublethink, but it sucks less than thinking that I’m obligated to deform my feet to be myself. For me, the radfem criticism of trans culture has taken the pressure off.

    I can’t vouch for other transwomen, and I don’t know what they mean by ‘woman.’ I don’t know what I mean by ‘woman’ in reference to the one in my head, beyond the body I think I should have. Any ‘gender role’ can only be described in stereotypical terms that simply don’t ring true for me. This is a strictly biological aversion for me. I don’t mean that I’m ‘neurologically intersex’ or whatever. I think that’s a possibility, but for now I’ll stick with what I know.

    For all of human history, a rather stable proportion of the population has ‘known’ (at least in the sense that I know my mind exists) that they could not sanely carry out the physical sex role assigned to them. By this I don’t mean BS gender roles, but the act of carrying the organs themselves. This population will never disappear. Like comic-book mutants, it’s moot whether they should exist because ‘normal’ humans will keep giving birth to more. It’s also moot what the cause is, because we can’t prevent it. There are other people who reject traditional gender roles but not their genitals, but I’m not talking about them.

    So am I woman, or man? Wait a minute…lemme take off my Anglo lenses (I suppose my black ass should do that more often)…

    Oh! It’s a false dilemma. The transgender population does not have to subscribe to Western ‘transgender’ ideology in order to reject their birth sex. Obviously most do, but that’s the Anglo lenses. Some Native American cultures see us as a third sex with a specific role that bridges the divide between men and women. In Thailand, a kickboxer named Nong Tum continued to fight and beat men after her ‘transition’ from man to kathoey (‘ladyboy’). I wonder how interested in women’s space she is.

    I think I could be very grateful for a third-sex role. I think I could find more peace there than as an American-style Transwoman®. I think trans women reject the third-sex role for what they perceive as female ‘privilege’ (passing on patriarchal terms) and a larger community to be part of. I think I lucked out here in that I’ve always been a loner, so that’s not as hard for me. For the rest of this I’ll still use the term transwomen, because that’s the closest Western description I have for men who ‘should have been born female.’ By this I do not mean that I *am* female.

    The group won’t disappear. But the ideas (western transgender ideology) are horseshit. So…maybe the group can get new ideas. I realize this isn’t your problem. I’m not asking you to solve anything, but I do consider your perspective necessary to this task.

    As trans women have had the harmful effect on women that we’re discussing, I think that such a reformation should be treated as ‘with-women-or-against-them.’ By this I mean that however possible, trans culture should consider itself obligated to take cues from radical feminism (on issues where they would otherwise be sure to conflict). If radical feminism changes, it shouldn’t be to better fit trans culture, but to better use it. Trans culture should be subordinate to natal women, and in a pathetic cargo-cult fashion I think it tries to be.

    Reason numero uno that I think trans culture should learn from radfem culture: A mutual enemy (patriarchy, whether trans women realize it or not). If women aren’t safe and free, I’m not safe or free. I think trans women should operate on this assumption, especially when it’s false (in order to check their own male privilege).

    Reason numero dos: In this culture, a person who considers ‘hirself’ a third sex will feel compelled to use the same medical and therapeutic services as a Barbie-doll transwoman. Whether this is a good thing or not, it will happen. Since the money is already flowing, I think the harm can be reduced by applying radical feminist reasoning. I also have to admit that yes, I myself want these services. If I’m going to do that and add to the demand, the least I can do is tell my therapist that I’m not there to learn gendered stereotypes.

    As for OCD, most trans women I know are rather messy. Especially their cars. Beats me.

    Not that I’m qualified, but I feel that the above comments are saying that a man is obligated to carry a working penis. You can’t tell me that radfems saying ‘what about the menz’ and mourning some guy’s balls isn’t kind of funny.

    TRIGGER WARNING – the next paragraph pertains to rape, and it IS offensive.

    PIV is natural (like rattlesnake venom and hurricanes). Rape (not consensual PIV, but rape) is the natural mode of reproduction for half of the life on the planet. Ducks are engaged in an evolutionary arms race to see which sex can convolute its genitals more, to either facilitate or prevent rape.

    The evolutionary psychologists are right IMO (and aren’t trying to excuse anything, largely – laymen are doing that). It’s nature that’s wrong. And I don’t mean that sarcastically. As animals, I think patriarchy is in our genes.

    By evolutionary standards, Warren Jeffs is perfect. Utterly perfect, alongside the shark and the Venus’ flytrap. He created an entire culture to spread his seed, and when he could no longer do that he self-destructed. His is the standard to beat among living things, in terms of natural selection. Conscience would have been an impediment.

    But we have gained abilities beyond those of other animals, and obligations beyond them as well. Lions are entitled to patriarchy because they can’t question it. As a human I have the ability to propose that our biology itself is obsolete. And I reject it. Apparently involuntarily. What I mean is that patriarchy is a symptom of a more fundamental problem – the existence of a 50% male population. You don’t need ten men to provide DNA for ten breeding women. Or a hundred women. If men find themselves in a role where they’re expected to turn wrenches during the day and be used as communal sperm dispensers by night, I don’t think they’ll mind too much.

    And joy of joys – it’s easier to neuter or hormonally feminize men than to ‘fix’ women who’ve had enough fixing.

    Maybe nature does have a conscience, lol. Maybe Nature (look Ma, no balls!) has decided that men have cultivated enough farmland and should start putting down their weapons, eh? That would explain why there are so few f-to-trans and so many masochist men and voluntary eunuchs and ‘sissies.’ Not to mention the deterioration of the Y chromosome, or the fact that an active process is required to maintain it once an embryo turns male.

    Of course, one must ask what magical genetic programming I assume all women have that I am missing. I don’t know. I suspect that Nature’s role for women (derailed by accidental overbreeding of male children) is to create communities, which are defended and supplied materially by men. In a sense, that women are the head and torso, while men are the arms and legs. Now imagine a person whose limbs attack them and drag them into trouble against their will. That’s humanity.

    I’m thinking of your statements about acting upon male space vs. female space. First, here’s what I can tell you about the privilege I have. As it stands now I present on most days as a man. A feminine man who’s frequently called ‘she’ and ‘her’ and ‘Miss’ even when I’m in dad jeans and a tucked-in gray polo shirt, but a man. A six foot, 230lb mulatto man. So people generally leave me the fuck alone. Until I open my mouth and they realize I’m not Antoine Dodson. Then suddenly I’m Mr. Very Articulate African-American Gentleman Friend of Mine. Colorism works to my advantage. “Good hair” fetishism works to my advantage. Truth be told, I get my ass kissed even racially.

    But I worry a lot about other trans women. Many trans women aren’t part of the community at all, and many of these have such feminine bodies (without any type of treatment) that they can’t pass as male. Some are almost unaware of trans culture or don’t understand it. I see them all the time in the Hispanic community. For these and many other trans women, acceptance from natal women is the only safety they have (and many get that acceptance without a second thought).

    I remember one woman I saw on the train, whom I didn’t ‘clock’ until some man did. She was maybe 19, 5’4″ and 110lbs, and dressed for a casual day out, nothing I don’t see on lots of young latinas. She froze solid in absolute terror when this man started asking her if she was ‘a dude.’ I asked the guy why he didn’t mind his own fucking business and proceeded to keep his attention on me. Then I sat between him and her. That was all I could do, and then she was alone again when she got off at her stop. I think she felt just as alone when I was sitting next to her. All I could offer was basic physical safety, and she probably couldn’t be sure of that.

    Imagine how much genuine love this girl would have for any natal women with whom she could travel in a pack. Said natal women would probably laugh if you asked them whether they feared the trans girl. That pack is a female space that I hope to find myself in one day, but you are right – if I push my way in, it will disappear. For one, my own mind is not yet part of that space.

    And if I find a safe third-sex space, will I be comfortable with women there? Will I be comfortable with men-born-women there?

    Staying away from Michfest, etc. is easy. I don’t understand what it is that trans women think they can ‘soak up’ there. Yes, my psychology is bereft of female socialization and estrogen. It’s also missing memories of moonlit summers on the French Riviera, and a Ph.D in computer science.

    But what a trans woman gets by barging into a WBW space is not female socialization. It’s women responding to what they see as a man. If someone’s going to play safari and ‘study’ WBW in their ‘natural habitat,’ they could at least realize that pushing themselves into the situation changes the dynamic.

    As for challenging men in their space (the streets, office, home, the moon), I don’t think trans women will be properly qualified to ‘represent’ women’s interests unless they are listening to women. Otherwise all trans women can bring against patriarchy is uninformed Nice Guy mentality.

    My only suggestion to radical feminists is this: I hope that men who want to ‘disarm’ themselves eventually become useful to you, and I hope that women gain the ability to control the male birthrate.

  16. Mary Sunshine Says:

    I hope that women gain the ability to control the male birthrate.

    It’s a snowball’s chance in hell, but I profoundly share the sentiment.

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      You know why it is a snowball’s chance?
      It is because women with male children get more kudos from general society than those with ‘only girls’.

      All women of childbearing age need to wake up to this scam. It is almost a form of cuckooing really, getting women to raise and nuture the next generation of oppressors and rapists.

  17. SheilaG Says:

    What if women could control the male birthrate? Right now males have exterminated over 160,000,000 million girls worldwide, so they are doing this to us in South Korea, China, the Philippines, India… the one child policy in China is a girl killer.

    Radical feminists posit themselves as creating a philosophy and an ideology that celebrates the hearts and minds of women, without the colonizing patriarchy that holds women back.

    Radical feminism is the only philosophy on the planet that is 100% in support of women, and 100% opposed to male domination and patriarchy.

    It means we create the spaces to create, to learn, to study without male interference.

    The trans-male dominators MtTrans are just one more distraction in the world of woman centered philosophy. Because the male medical model is behind the American trans invasion of female spaces, it is a serious danger to the brilliance of lesbian land, radical feminism and the freedom movement of the female soul.

    We see in the invasion and subversion of Michigan typical male tactics. The lack of respect for women, the invasion of women’s places, and the attacks on radical feminism that are part and parcel of trans invasion of women’s studies departments on college campuses.

    Male to trans don’t even know how the female body actually works biologically, and the ridiculous surgery is an immitation, it is not the female body.

  18. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Scary. It’s all so scary as we get written out of history, and denied OUR right to OUR herstory once again, being told it’s so much nonsense and ‘being a woman’ is in your head, and yet women can have flesh cocks too, and men can be penisless and have vaginas and be Thomas Beatties or Matt Rices and have babies.

    What a ‘Brave New World’ we’re living in, where ‘gender’ matters and biological sex does not. No, our sex we’re born should NOT hold us back. But, we ARE different in many unique ways, and especially amongst our own…where we get to hear each other’s voices and truths…and yet…anytime we gather, we are impinged on by the male born who will never truly understand us.

    I do believe in 3rd or 4th genders…and if that’s what you feel you are, that’s the space you should create. NOT usurp female attention or female space. Redefine yourself anyway you want, dress any way you want, but have respect. Just like I do not agree with all this FTMing going on in my Dyke communities, and it greatly, greatly saddens me to see YET ANOTHER Butch transition, I can respect an FTM who decides NOT to go into female only space, or attempt to coopt it, because now they’ve decided to identify as male, hopped up on male hormones, and identifying with bio males in their heads. I feel the same in MTF’s and others respecting OUR needs as Dykes, as women to have OUR spaces too for just wbw, and to discuss OUR needs and issues and joys and sacred connections.

    Yes, there’s always been those who haven’t ‘fit in’ either way, perhaps it’s an excess of hormones before birth either way, who have blended, and I’m all for that kind of genderfluidity if that’s what works for you….as long as I have respect for myself as a Butch Dyke FEMALE, and want my Amazonian spaces and places and connections with other Dykes and bio-females respected.

    To have respect, one must give it…and that flows both ways. Good luck on your travels.
    -FeistyAmazon

  19. FeistyAmazon Says:

    P.S. I do believe women could and DID control the birthrate, before the wholesale slaughter of the Pagan peoples and Witches and Shaman women and healers. I believe women had various forms of birth control through plants and herbs, and perhaps even knew what foods or herbs to consume to influence which sex they would birth. Because of the insistent patriarchies for the last few thousand years and inheritance laws/rule, male babies were often preferred, up to this modern day! To think that 160 million females were aborted, killed ect is just horrifying to me, is the ultimate in being seen as valueless. WOMEN HAVE TO HAVE THE COMPLETE AND TOTAL CONTROL OVER THE MEANS OF REPRODUCTION, as we did in the ancient past. There is the loving Mother and the Terrible Mother/Crone/Dark Goddess types as well…where WOMEN decided whether a baby would be born or be aborted…where it was totally in our hands to decide. “How could you trust me with a child, if you cannot trust me with a choice?” is the modern day bumpersticker.

    But to see female babies as entirely valueless is the ultimate in female self-hatred and patriarchy.

    One way to change this in a small way, is all the Lesbians that are trudging out to get artificially inseminated(to fit into the white picket fence ideal) is that 80% of those births will result in male babies…this is much higher than the regular male/female sex method! So,there is something happening in the whole artificial insemination industry where male babies are so much more prevalent, then who has argued with us for years and years in INSISTING their male children come to Lesbian and women only events over and over again? The mothers of these babies! So again, even the strongest most independent of female, Lesbians, are again roped into supporting the male at OUR expense. We’ve gone over and over this in the community, at Michfest, and elsewhere. While again, female children’s needs are ignored or dismissed, and again, even in women’s space, they have to deal with male children who have privilige everywhere else in the world!
    And there are ways to check and see if the chromosomes are male or female, and only to be inseminated by female sperm(ewww…the whole idea grosses me out, but for those whose biological clock is ticking, at least let Dykes birth females to counterbalance the 160 million!) OR even better, develope ovum fusing or parthenogenesis!

    Indeed WOMEN are the only ones who should have ANY SAY in the matters of reproduction and child bearing. In that I wholeheartedly agree.
    -FeistyAmazon

  20. DEPL Says:

    Hi everyone,

    Interesting discussion!

    So I see that that the “Battle of the Sex’s” goes on!! It’s not just men versus women anymore, we have more “sex’s” now, so more combatants and sides than ever!

    [Yeah, No. There are two sexes. The egg producing one and the sperm producing one. And your framing of our profoundly abusive and male-supremacist society as some sort of "combat" with equal "sides" is disgusting. Patriarchy is a sex-based hierarchy, designed to keep males dominant and females subordinate. It's not some fucking random meaningless push and pull. It's about sperm producing individuals seeking to control the people who produce eggs. Seriously I am getting damn sick of long-winded entitled privileged superior men like yourself thinking that feminist blogs are a place to spew your "wisdom". Don't any of you ever listen to yourselves? Do you ever STFU and listen to females? I swear, I read feminist blogs for years, I listened and learned and studied before I even left my first one-sentence comment. And before I began writing on Genderism, I read, and read, and studied, and listened. FOR YEARS. Shame on you for wallowing in your male-supremacist privilege and spewing it all over a feminist site with utter disregard for acquiring a basic understanding of the concepts being discussed. -GM]

    If we’re not careful, we’ll have World War Three!

    [World War Three? What the FUCK? A man like you is clearly not aware that there IS a war on women RIGHT NOW. And has been for a COUPLE THOUSAND YEARS. A REAL WAR where women are being murdered, and maimed, and enslaved, and raped BY MEN. Ohhhhhh... but you meant the kind of war that is fought with armaments and weaponry. The systems of killing and war and power that are ALL MADE BY AND OWNED BY MEN. That's the only "war" you know about. MEN's war against MEN. What military organizations do women own to fight this "World War Three" of your fantasies??? Or are you just threatening to enact genocide on females???? -GM]

    Can’t we just get along?? Why do we need to argue about our differences, rather than focus on our similarities? And that goes for ALL sex’s and genders, irrespective of what we have between our legs, or what we perceive ourselves to be in our hearts and/or heads.

    [Okay Rodney King. You are a woman-hating idiot of the highest order. And my taking the time to inform you of that is an act of kindness. Why don't you answer your own questions. Why do YOU THINK women are saying what they are saying here??? Why do YOU THINK we "need to argue" against a system that oppresses us???? Do you think we are just STUPID??? Your total and complete disregard for the lives of women, and the words of the women on this blog is the most disgusting thing I've seen in the last five minutes.-GM]

    We need to love each other, not argue and create animosity, because whether we realise it or not, that’s what creates war’s, and that’s what this is, a low level war, and it’s escalating – and sooner or later, people are going to get hurt, not only emotionally or mentally, but physically, and fatally.

    ["People" are going to get hurt? "Sooner or Later?" If women discuss Women's Liberation? Not only do I consider that a personal threat from you, but your hateful disregard for the existing real physical and fatal war against females is nauseatingly callous and male-centric and women-hating. -GM]

    The truth is, that the wrongs that have been perpetrated against women in the past, for all their magnitude, are a lack of love – and creating animosity and divisions, and alienating people, simply makes it worse.

    [In "the past"? So the wrongs have been corrected? And women "alienating" men like yourself and our "lack of love" for you, is making your actions- and our subjugation "worse"? These are the words of an abuser. You are a sick, sick man who should never be allowed around females or children.-GM]

    What I see here, is not a group of people coming together to create a solution to the problem at hand, but rather, each individual deciding which tribe to join, and separating from the community into polarised, antagonistic groups, and arming themselves (figuratively) in preparation for battle and dominance of their own ideology.
    And ideology can be dangerous, as in racism, communism (corrupted), the crusades, white supremacy, elitism, Stalinism, Hitlerism, maleism (yes, I know, it should be patriarchialism, but I wish to include rather than exclude ALL people, not just college graduates), elitism, and feminism too.
    These all started out small, and grew; but just because women have been oppressed and abused by men, it does not justify oppressing and abusing men either, and proving yourself to be just as bad, just exactly the same.

    Whatever our differences are, whoever we are, we are more than ninety nine percent the same, made from the same basic stuff, the same basic DNA, the same basic flesh and blood. We all feel, we all hurt, we all struggle, we all get sick, we are all a bundle of contradictions, and we ALL need to learn to live and let live. We all need to reach a point where we can do and live as we choose, as long as that does not restrict another persons right to do the same. And that takes respect, for one another, and for ourselves – and that needs to be earned by respecting the right of another to choose for themselves, and acting accordingly – and among other things, that means not intruding into someone else’s space without permission, or imposing your views or presence when not wanted.

    We need to focus on loving each other, and accepting our differences, in fact embracing them, as they lead to a far richer experience of life than the narrow confines that have been traditional. Love is the key here, not intellectual debate or argument. And if you love someone, on whatever level (whether as a friend, lover, acquaintance, son, daughter, parent, workmate, human-being, etc), then you will respect their choices, and wish them well, and John Lennon understood that, and someone that didn’t, and resented that, shot him, simply because they didn’t agree with his opinion.

    I can see the lines being drawn in the sand here, and polarisation is always a bad thing, as it obscures the root problems, and creates knee-jerk reactions, and half-ass solutions that simply create more divisions. Our community, and I mean society at large here, is being divided and conquered by animosity and self centred greed, and the results can be seen all around us, and I suspect that the London riots are a sign of what is to come if we continue down this path. It is good for like minded people to come together and share their hopes and dreams, and aspirations with one another; but we need to avoid using that as a tool for destructive, negative behaviour – it should enrich our lives and communities, not destroy them. It should add to the variety and choices we have, not diminish them; create opportunities to interact and help each other, not hinder or oppress them; create joy and openness, not fear and alienation.

    Whoever, and whatever you are, I’d like to give you a hug, and maybe we can learn to be friends, or at least to tolerate or ignore each other if not. To each their own.

    Who am I?? What am I?? I’m not sure! I was born into a male body. I am attracted to women, but have always gone for the more Tom-Boy types, and until I shared a house with some lesbians years ago, thought of myself as a heterosexual man.

    [You are a heterosexual man who perves on women who don't want you. Namely Lesbians. Your interest lies in finding a way to gain access to females that want nothing to do with you. It's a psychic form of rape which inhabits your fantasies and excites you. It's a deep sense of entitlement to all things female which drives you. -GM]

    But I’ve never really been comfortable with that; I’ve always had to put on an act in order to be accepted as a man in male society.
    [LIES. The only thing you ever needed to be accepted as a man is your biological maleness. As evidenced by your predatory entitled mentality which is proof of your complete and successful male grooming and embrace of the male-supremacist dominant role. You may have adopted various superficial social norms to jockey for your slot on the chain of male-hierarchy, among other men, but there was never a moment - not a SINGLE MOMENT where you have not been accepted as male in male society. Wishing you were more successful in gaining male status among other men has NOTHING to do with being "unaccepted as male". -GM]

    I’ve had a fascination for getting my dick sliced off
    since I was a boy, and used to push my balls up into my body, and pull my dick between my legs, and stand in front of the mirror and see myself dick-less. My first memory of that was at about eight years old.

    [When I was 8 years old, I used to bend the finger on one hand, and then use the thumb on the other hand to make it look like my finger was detatched! Haha. It was so funny.

    And sometimes I would kneel on my shoes, and pretend I was a little short-legged person. Being 8 is fun, isn't it? Of course, I didn't correlate my body-mod play with sexuality. I didn't elaborate on it and integrate it into my fantasy based masturbatory sexuality at the onset of puberty the way you did. -GM]

    I have been fascinated about the thought of a “sex-change” since way back in the hippy days. The technique was so crude way back then, that I dismissed it as butchery, and thought that maybe one day…
    I am attracted to lesbians, butch lesbians in particular, though I only realised this fairly recently. I always thought that when I asked a women to go out, and she’d say she was a lesbian, that it was a dodge, as I’d heard from a woman I knew that she sometimes said that to dissuade a persistent man. I never harassed women if they said no, though I might give them a “are you sure – I like you” look sometimes when we interacted, in passing, but not in a harassing way, or often – I took no for an answer.

    [So your sexuality revolves around ignoring the wishes and boundaries of women who want nothing to do with you. You didn't outright rape them - or so you claim- or at least you haven't yet. So you do have some level of control over your impulses. You are choosing to target women specifically because your attention is repulsive to them and undesired. That is a form of psychic rape. And it's also called predatory sexual harassment. Your hetero male fantasies revolve around hassling and perving on lesbians and inflicting your undesired male sexuality on them, deliberately and non-consentually. That is the kind of person you are. These women are simply targets for you. Objects for your masturbation pleasure. You have managed to distill your sexuality into a soulless, purely selfish experience, one that eliminates any mutual sharing with another human. -GM]

    As SRS is very sophisticated these days, I’ve considered it, but I’m a big man, tall and broad, and I think I’d be an ugly woman, and who wants to be an ugly woman??

    [Ugly women who love themselves want to be ugly women. But then again they actually are women. Not predatory males who've chosen to cultivate obsessive sexualities around hatred of females.-GM]

    Besides, I’ve developed a very strong castration fantasy, and penectomy fantasy, and am strongly attracted to the idea of being a NULLO, and at this point have decided that I’m far more comfortable with becoming a neutered NULLO than to be a pretend female.

    [Yes, it's obvious that you have dedicated a lot of time and effort, probably years of your life into nurturing and developing fantasies that revolve around expressing power and control over living things you view as sexualized "objects". Somewhere along the line you decided that sexuality was more satisfying in the absence of a (willing) partner. A psychopathic sexuality stripped of all vestiges of warmth and humanity. Nullo sexuality. Sexuality that is entirely virtual and stripped of all humanity.
    Well brother, good for you. At least you only want to confine your genital mutilation to your own.

    The only problem is that your nullification won't be satisfying. It won't scratch that itch. It might be a temporary rush but that old malaise will very soon return.
    Your issue is one of the mind, and of your spirit. And you have inadvertently created it for yourself by nurturing these fantasies all these years. You have created a tape loop in your brain. You have literally altered your neurology by obsessive-compulsively repeating the same fantasies- the same VISUALIZATIONS over and over. What you thought were harmless indulgences were actually the acts of repetitive self-injury of an individual whose behavior a clinician would classify as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
    That's right. Like a person who feels compelled to wash their hands over and over long after their skin is raw. Or lock and re-lock a door a thousand times, or have to take steps in multiples of three when walking at the mall. -GM]

    Am I a Lesbian in a mans body, I don’t know.

    [No. You are not. The very definition of Lesbianism is at odds with male physiology. And if you think you can ever "become" a trans "lesbian" just look at today's post to see the bitterness and despair that men who try who try to do so feel, after thirty years of total rejection and failure. Oh, and by the way- no female, not even one who is oriented to male physiology will ever want you after you are castrated. Not because you are missing the almighty dick, but because the evidence of your out of control destructive obsessive sexuality will be too terrifying to them. -GM]

    It’s a closer description of what I feel that I am than anything else I can up with, and I do love to lick pussy, and would be quite happy as a NULLO myself. Love has always been far more important to me than sex. I’ve wanted this for so long now, that I need to get it done. If I can’t get a surgeon to do it, I’ll have to do it myself – I’ve studied this for years and know exactly what to do, but it’ll be a lot safer in a hospital! That is my preference, but I can’t get it because I don’t qualify under the Harry Benjamin standard.

    [I agree that the WPATH standards of care are fascistic and discriminatory in their application of gender= the cultural roles of sex-based hierarchy which privileges males and oppresses females. The new guidelines issued this week allow for castration (but not penectomy) on an informed-consent basis by the way. I'll be posting on the new guidelines soon.- GM]

    Now I’m not crazy, depressed or particularly suicidal, but I NEED to be desexed, more than I need to breathe! And yes, I’ve thought this through, fourteen years now.

    Now I understand that many of you may not understand, I’m not asking you to, just don’t stand in my way. All that you are doing, is denying me access to a safe, sane, surgical procedure, and forcing me to have the nullification done either by myself, or by an unqualified, unskilled person, and in effect, risking MY LIFE unnecessarily. It’s going to come off whether you like it or not; the issue is much like an abortion. Whether you agree with abortion or not, or think it’s a bad idea, women will get abortions either way – but less women will die unnecessarily if a qualified surgeon does them in a proper hospital surgery than in a back yard abortion. It’s a case of harm minimisation, of managing the situation as best you can. Same as methadone treatment for drug addicts – you have people dying, would you rather have 20,000 dead or 1,000??
    Now nobody wants 1,000 people dead, but it’s better than 20,000! You may not want them taking drugs, but either you manage it, or it runs out of control.

    Why should it matter to you if I have my genitals cut off, they’re my genitals, and I’m the one who will potentially miss them. I’m not asking you to pay for it, as you shouldn’t ask for abortion to be paid for by the public health system either, I’m simply asking for access to the surgeons that are willing, to perform this procedure on me. Isn’t that more sane than cutting it off myself?? Than the alternative??

    [In the larger view of things, it doesn't matter to me at all what you do to your genitals. I'm just telling you that it won't make you feel better. The obsessive compulsive malaise in your mind will soon switch to another target which will haunt you anew. I speculate that a clinician might advise you to try SSRI's which are used to treat obsessive compulsive disorder, and possibly an androgen inhibitor which is used to treat men with destructive sexual desires. Of course I am NOT a clinician and this should not be taken as diagnostic or medical clinical advice. Please seek out a trusted medical provider.
    http://www.brainphysics.com/medications.php
    -GM]

    • GallusMag Says:

      BTW your abortion comments are offensive to all women.

      • DaveSquirrel Says:

        Oh yeah, my eyes really bugged out when I read that. Comparing his self-perpetuated mental state with a physical condition, frequently required because of unwanted PIV in a PIV-centric society.

        You had him pegged with mental-masturbationry-rapist. He is one sick puppy. A one-way trip to the vet would fix that.

    • GallusMag Says:

      “.. I’m simply asking for access to the surgeons that are willing, to perform this procedure on me. Isn’t that more sane than cutting it off myself?? Than the alternative??”

      If you’re asking my opinion, I think in the larger scheme of things cutting it off yourself is “saner” than the alternative.
      By that I mean that I think it would be insane- SYSTEMICALLY insane, for medical providers to perform amputations on healthy body parts for folks who suffer from obsessive-compulsive Body Integrity Disorder.

  21. GallusMag Says:

    I know right? He had to make sure he hit all the marks, including suggesting that women’s reproductive health services should not be covered under federally funded medical programs. On a fucking Women’s Liberation blog.
    Lordy.
    Oh well. I like to waste my breath occasionally. You never know who might have their consciousness raised. Probably someone reading quietly who would never spam me with a 1000 word comment mansplaining how I’m doing feminism wrong.

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      We seem to attract some very wordy trolls. One I had a little while ago serial-spammed me with four or five really long comments (within the space of an hour). They got ‘published’ to my trash pile.

      I also ban trolls for the crime of being boring. Because I am a big meanie!

  22. Bev Jo Says:

    Oh Gallus, you answered this arrogant narcissist so well. He does not have a clue what it means to be female, yet he thinks you (and we) want to read his long, involved wanky crap. I can never get over how important and entitled they are. Unbelievable. It’s so bad, it’s almost satire, except I’ve heard it before.

    Love the vet suggestion, Dave!

    I don’t even think he wants to cut off his prick. He sounds like he just loves talking about it and his Lesbian-hating pornographic fantasies because he’s used to conning women into making a fuss over him and even being concerned for him. Yes, great comment for him to just do it himself.

    god, these female impersonators are repulsive.

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      because he’s used to conning women into making a fuss over him and even being concerned for him

      Yup, I think that is him, and many others.
      Sadly for dudes like him, I operate with a CareFactorZero.


  23. Reading through comments, I thought I would mention that it is a common misconception that OCD means neat, tidy or clean. In fact, a very common variant is Intrustive Thoughts Only. Body Dysmorphia of any kind could easily be attributed to Intrusive Thoughts. I do not support body mutilation, particularly of the type that takes a functioning body and makes it a limping along with medical help kind of body (tattoos and most piercings are not that destructive).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thoughts

  24. GallusMag Says:

    Tokyo Illustrator and Nullo/Smoothie “Ho Ch” has genitals removed, served to guests at banquet:
    “On Sunday, April 13, Tokyo illustrator Mao Sugiyama (who goes by the nickname “HC”), publicly seasoned and braised his own genitals on a portable gas cartridge burner, and then served them to five eager diners who each paid about $250 for the meal (a sixth was a no-show). The genitals had been returned to the asexual Sugiyama, frozen and double-bagged in plastic, following elective genital removal surgery on his 22nd birthday in early April.”
    http://calorielab.com/news/2012/05/17/tokyo-ham-cybele-human-genital-banquet-not-illegal/

  25. la redactora Says:

    That is disgusting and wrong (wrong!). What next? “Donner” Parties? Let’s all chop off our arms, sizzle em up on the grill, and dig in. Conceptual art.

  26. Joanna Says:

    I must be honest that I am disappointed with the close-mindedness of the comments here. You could at least make an effort to empathize with people who want this surgery, or similar.

    Take a minute to do a thought experiment. Pretend that someone coercively put you on hormones of the “other” gender (testosterone for female identified people, estrogen for male-identified people). And, you started to grow facial hair and get a lower voice, or grow breasts. Would you want them removed/reverted, when you got control of your body?

    Take a minute to question why you feel special privilege over trans* people to deny their body feelings, or ability to act on their desires. Words of wisdom say that if you have no internal discomfort (in this case, with your body), you shouldn’t need to take issue with others’ decisions.

    A last point is that some people want to “wrongify” what seems “unnatural” to them. But, realize that your idea of natural is really not how nature is: nature is messy! There is no single concordence of body sex with gender, and not only two at-birth body sexes. Just because you fit in some majority doesn’t mean you are more natural :).

    • GallusMag Says:

      I don’t give a shit what trans people or “nullos” do unless is affects women.

      “Words of wisdom say that if you have no internal discomfort (in this case, with your body), you shouldn’t need to take issue with others’ decisions.”
      What the hell are you talking about? What female on earth does not have “discomfort” with her own body when her value as a human being is measured in the value of her body as a commodity for the consumption of men? As a man you would not understand that. As a man whose very self-concept is defined by and dependent on female subordination you have a vested interest in NOT understanding that. Even when a woman explains it to you as I have just done.

      “A last point is that some people want to “wrongify” what seems “unnatural” to them. But, realize that your idea of natural is really not how nature is: nature is messy! There is no single concordence of body sex with gender, and not only two at-birth body sexes. Just because you fit in some majority doesn’t mean you are more natural :).”
      Even though some humans are born missing a limb we consider humans to be a bipedal species. Congenital mutations happen in nature and are therefore “natural”. So is cancer. “Natural” mutations don’t mean such mutations are neutral. Missing a limb or having a tumor is not a neutral outcome, rather it is a less than optimal outcome. Deliberately chopping off one’s own leg because one suffers from obsessive-compulsive body integrity identity disorder is not “natural”. It is also not neutral since biophysical function and homeostasis is impaired.

      • Joanna Says:

        I appreciate your mention of your own discomfort. You describe not being comfortable about society’s expectations for your body. But, I think I was talking about something slightly different — just how you see your body. Try the thought experiment: is it too unrealistic? Some women just naturally have more testosterone, hence have facial hair, etc.

        I understand this isn’t the most open-minded place, and my viewpoints aren’t so welcome, but I’ll write this anyway. Please try not to be so hostile. I don’t see what it buys anyone. Have you already made so many assumptions about who I am that you judge me insufficient of basic empathy?

        Let’s take the leg example you provide, it’s workable. You claim that wanting to chop off the leg is not natural. What’s not natural? The desire? Where did the _feeling_ come from? Did it come from some Lucretian force, some non-biological notion of free will? Did our nameless subject choose to have their disorder?

        If you think about it, those arguments fall down. The feeling certainly doesn’t come from society — society doesn’t want the person partially immobilized. I think you’ll be left with the conclusion that the feeling is natural, but I’m curious to know what alternatives you can think of.


      • Who cares if the thought is natural or not. One does not act on irrational thoughts. I want to MURDER the person who cuts me off in traffic. Just because I have the thought does not mean I need to act on it. Where has this belief started that all thoughts must be actualized? Entitlement!

      • anon Says:

        I’m just blown away — I mean, seriously OMG, WTF, ETC — that someone would choose this article, out of all that you’ve ever posted, to place their generic “we’re just folks” pablum on.

        I work with a lot of people who have severe mental illness. The vast majority of them know they have problems. They’ll come to me in the morning and apologize for having a rough night, taking it out on me, etc., and it’s heart breaking.

        OTOH, it almost seems enviable to be as completely unstable as many trans* and not have a friggin’ clue that something’s wrong and the social support to never have to accept that something else is going on.


  27. Wow. Just..[snip] .wow. [snip] cissexist, transphobic, [snip] disgusting pigheaded and closeminded [snip].
    Educate yourself.[snip] TRANSwomen (like it or not, these people are women, as well). You take our chances to speak up for ourselves and our lifestyles and mute us. You don’t help women. You MUTE them. You’re no worse than the patriarchy. You uphold it.

    [See how I save my readers valuable time? LMAO -GM]

    • Darcie Says:

      aaaaaaaaaaaa hahahahaha thanks Gallus I needed that.

      But really, some dood calling himself dont fear the reaper talking about TRANSPHOBIA!! Symbol of death, shrouded in darkness, carrying around a big sickle, whose job it is to “reap” to harvest energy, souls, womyn’s souls, womyn’s energy, harvested by this dead man’s skeleton- not to be feared. To say nothing of those “oh, come die with me I’m yer man” bullshit song lyrics. No sense of irony, this one. Nice distillation of the trans platform though.

    • doublevez Says:

      LOLOLOL kiss kiss. LOLOLOLOL

  28. Lilah Says:

    I m sorry but men just fucking sicken me, they turn everything into some kind of fucking pathology or fetish. Every damn thing can become a sexual thing to them. I don’t care how I sound anymore, it’s all I see.

    I seriously wish I could just get away from the freaks altogether.

  29. Andrew Carson Says:

    Why is it that You can go out and get plastic sergery on most parts of your body but when a man want his bits cut off you lot think he is crazy or depressed, I have had depression and now I’m more happy than I have ever been in my life, I can prove I’m not depressed but my desire to be nullified is still there but it is still illegal in the uk so I’m going to have to go underground to have it done. I’m not hurting anyone else just me and if it makes me happy then why should I not be able to have it done by a plastic sergen where I’m in safe hands and not putting my life at risk, some of you make me sick because you think your right and because it does not conform to your ways it’s wrong and we are sick in the head. A thought, if you could change anything what would it be? Then if the answer involves sergery then you must be as sick in the head as me.

    • Guls Says:

      Just because somebody CAN go get surgery to ‘cure’ their ‘problem’ doesn’t necessarily mean they SHOULD, though. As a guy, there are ways I might modify my appearance (and/or behaviour) to improve my relative status within the hierarchy; but society is not going to judge my maleness, or my human worth primarily on my appearance. Anything I do to alter my appearance will be to please myself – whether in the service of my own vanity or in response to my own psychopathology. One practical upshot of that is that elective ‘cosmetic’ surgery for men is never going to be promoted on the same scale as for women because the potential for profit – financial and also political – is fractional in the absence of ideals/norms of maleness/masculinity paralling ideals/norms of femaleness/femininity. It’s not my place to tell you what you should or shouldn’t try on your path to finding happiness in life; but I will suggest that what you see as a situation favouring women over men in your position is actually quite the reverse. You say you’re not depressed and you may well be right: there are numerous references to OCD in this thread, however, and that may well be something worth investigating further. I’ve long suffered from pathological anxiety, and OCD of the ‘intrusive thought only’ (well, mostly) variety mentioned by Marj earlier in the thread, and I had a bit of a eureka! moment during the discussion when I recalled that severing my genitals was quite a recurrent such thought during childhood – rather less so now. Soran’s thoughtfulness and willingness to think outside the box really impressed me, too: his definition of Testosterone as a biological poison needs further qualification, I think; and the whole section on PIV/rape seemed like an unnecessary diversion to me, the anthropomorphic notion of animal patriarchy just plain wrong. A couple blips though from an otherwise thoroughly admirable and thrilling maverick intellect. As for DEPL – just wow! One messed-up individual – the scariest thing being that the difference between him and an awful lot more equally deranged but ‘normal’ people isn’t as great as one might think (though I guess I’m preaching to the choir on the latter score).

      Thanks again for some thought-provoking subject matter and discussion, cheers,

      Andy.

  30. anon male Says:

    “A thought, if you could change anything what would it be?”

    world peace and no hunger — I must be a lunatic!

    • Andrew Carson Says:

      World peace and no hunger– then you are a lunatic. How many people would you have to kill to stop wars, someone always wants what another country has, oil, land or just because because they can and to feed the world would be easy but if we did that then more people would be alive and more children would be born so it would all happen over and over again so yes you must be a lunatic if you think that could ever happen.
      On the other hand I only what peace of mind and if thats as easy as getting my bits cut off then why should anyone think I’m crazy.

      • Guls Says:

        Killing people to stop wars – what am I missing here? You also seem to be glossing over the interconnectedness of overpopulation and warmongering: war requires a steady stream of both military and civillian cannon-fodder to keep going, something that a system of patriarchy is custom-designed to provide – as GallusMag points out in response to DEPL, war isn’t just confined to battlefields – and isn’t the same patriarchy the reason for this obsession with breaking up the world population into arbitrary chunks and trying to stockpile/steal resources rather than share them around in a spirit of genuine love and co-operation; the reason why so many resources are scarce in the first place? It may sound trite to some, but simply leave women to manage their own reproduction and a significant proportion of ‘the world’s problems’ really would be solved, if not overnight, then surely in the space of a couple generations.

      • Andrew Carson Says:

        You get me wrong, I want world peace, I want everyone in the world to be free from hunger and most of all I want the world to live as one where everyone is equal but this is not going to happen. We can all say what shoul happen but until the people of the world unite it’s all just dreams.

  31. Guls Says:

    In your first post you say ‘I’m not hurting anyone else just me and if it makes me happy then why should I not be able to….’. As a self-harmer via cutting (formerly) and alcohol (currently) this kind of thinking disturbs me – hurt yourself to be happy? You want world peace but you’re advocating individuals harming themselves to achieve it? That’s every bit as contrary a killing people to avert war. Look to the example of women mutilating themselves to achieve ‘acceptabilty’ – FGM, foot-binding etc – has that increased the sum of human happiness? I think not.

    • Andrew Carson Says:

      Again you took my words wrong, if like a lot of other people I had a nose job I would be hurting myself only to please me, I don’t want to hurt myself as in self harm ( I did when I was depressed, I wanted to kill myself for many years but after a long stint on anti depressants I feel I want to live a full happy life ) I only want the right to change a part of me that has never worked right, I don’t need then or want them. I don’t have anyone in my life who’s feeling would be hurt by me doing this, I don’t want to do it over and over again, this is once in a lifetime thing and I have thought it threw and I know it’s going to change my life.
      You on the other hand harm yourself every time you drink to much alcohol, knowing what your doing but you think it makes you happy, I have tryed to drink but I don’t like the feeling it gave me, it’s a depressant as most people know but they still drink it like you.
      My mother drank her self to death and I had to watch every day for years but she would not except help from me or anyone and every day since she died I still think it was my fault because I should of done more but did not know how I alone could make her happy so I let her drink. I on the other hand can be happy without drinking myself to death and if by changing my body in a way only I will know about then I will find a way one way or another.

      • anon male Says:

        OK, this is messed up to the point where I’m going to have to butt-in despite knowing better (I’m not sure anyone here needs a discussion between three males!) but it’s absurd to compare drinking to removing one’s genitals surgically.

        Yes, yes, Guls was reacting to one particular statement (“not hurting”), but the response was unwarranted. I mean, geesh, you can recover fairly easily from trying alcohol once (even if you have genes that predispose you to addictive behaviors), but there’s no going back post surgery. So you’re just hammering him with guilt over his attempt to connect on a human level. I’m sure you’ll say I’m just misunderstanding you too.

        At any rate, my understanding is thus:

        1. This body modification does have the potential to affect other people. Years from now, in a nursing home, some woman will probably have to monitor you for UTIs which can go right to the brain in elderly people. Not only would you be putting yourself at risk for premature death that way, you’d be an extra burden on staff, which will probably still be mostly female in the future if we don’t all melt by that time, anyway. Yes, yes, the retort to this is if you don’t get the body mod now, you might kill yourself now. There’s no answering that besides saying that people with extreme mods (lion dude!) tend to kill themselves even after surgery so who knows how effective getting what you want really is (/Sontag).

        2. Maybe if this thing was proven to make males into better people, I’d sign up for a procedure (or preferably a medication of some sort) if it were mandatory; and fight for it to be mandatory, at that.

        But this isn’t about politics for you. It’s just about you. Which is what my point was about how limited your desire for change really was with the “world peace” sniping, in response to your statement that implied every person / any person here would use their first Genie Lamp wish on plastic surgery.

  32. Andrew Carson Says:

    Guls, you sound like a very intelligent man, Im not clever, I want a simple life alone but I also want to be happy, it’s nothing to do with anyone else seeing what I have done had done to myself its about me feeling normal. I live alone with my dog and cat and feel like I have a chance to live a full and happy life if only I can find a way to have this done, am I wrong?

  33. Guls Says:

    Not sure intelligence comes into it; it’ss not for me to affirm your your thoughts or choices one way or the other: just feels wrong to me is all.

    • Andrew Carson Says:

      That’s ok each to there own, I’m against drinking alcohol but I’m not telling you that it’s wrong and you should not drink, drinking makes me feel wrong so why come on a site like this and try to thrust your opinions on me, it’s a matter of choice.

  34. Abi Says:

    I have been browsing your comments since yesterday. Pls excuse me not saying I was here but I was taking stuff in. Pls excuse my inexpertise in writing. I have never taken against transexual people ( and I still would’nt as a case for liberty and freedom) but I feel compelled to write this as I can see that their legally won claims to female-ness actually deny me as a woman or any girl children I am responsible for. I was brought into this by reading all the furore over Julia Birchill, Moore and all those women journalists. I feel ashamed I did;nt know it before but really I took it for granted that men who want to be ‘trannies’ I would not pick on or bother. I have known or at least been aware of ‘trannies’ all if my life I think, and as a group of people I have no issue with them. They are males born who seem to have a problem with their i;dentity’.

    But this is invasive, with all these laws enacted about them saying they are actual females !!!!! I cannot see trans men as actual women, not that this is the Holy Grail, but they just are not.!

    I find it hard a a so called woman identified man would try to find his way around changing a woman only space .I would no way get undressed in a (public funded) area that needed to get undressed with a man there. I would not do it. (unless I knew him closely and romantically or he was a well known and well loved gay friend for whom I knew my body held no ‘fascinations;

    The fact that these troubled peopled are expecting no response to this shows the level of their ignorance and a lack of empathy for females and support for child protection issues(suprising for men who apparently identify as a woman!?!).

    All I want to say is yes, we all need to live a full enriching life and the state should not limit adults who want to ‘dance’ with themselves or with other adults. This trans lobby however seem to want to limit and negate what WOMEN KNOW and what they feel and experience (very much as a scary group of men who feel it is their right to have sex with homosexual women)which is no way for a 21st century state to behave toward women.


  35. [...] comment by (MtT) Soran on the GenderTrender blog post ‘Male to Eunuch, Asexuality and Gender Nullification’ came close to articulating this, when he* [...]

  36. fergus Says:

    Im an male in my early forty”s and I desire to have my penis removed by total penectomy and testicles also so . I don’ want to become a female just a man without my penis and testicles

  37. john powell Says:

    I want to become a eunich.I need to find someone to castrate me

  38. taylor Says:

    I’m a bio gay male and previously began transitioning then returned to living as a male. First off I am disappointed at some of the attitudes of the females on the forum not only towards males who desire genital modifications but just men in general. I think sometimes women get so wrapped up in rad-feminism they forget what the movement is about and become fixated on hating and crucifying men and that’s not right! As far as men electing to get nullification surgery it’s a complicated subject. I do think radical body modifications arise do to environmental influences sometimes outside of our control. This DOES NOT make them “natural” per se as one individual tried to imply. I think when it all boils down though every case is special….some M2Enuch want the surgery to appease some “inner voice” some want it for some “sexual gratification” who knows. One thing I do know though is that women are not the only victims of what society deems acceptable for men and women or gender roles if you will. Hysterectomies and the removal of ovaries are commonplace surgeries…i know quite a few women who have had them. All the while penectomy and orechtomy are frowned upon and we all know why…just take the rules of feminism and apply them. We are taught to value male parts greatly so the idea of removing them is an idea society is not comfortable with. I think its funny though that feminist women in this forum probably champion abortion rights or the idea of having a hysterectomy to prevent cervical cancer as angelina jolie did on the basic feminazi principle that it’s “their” body and they should have dominion over it however they shy away from applying that same principle to men who elect to remove their reproductive organs. Something doesn’t add up. So according to some on this forum women should have all the right to terminate a “NATURALLY” occurring pregnancy….an actual human being….can’t get more “healthy” and natural than that, but its not ok to remove male parts to appease whatever medical dysfunction said person is going through, be it mental or otherwise. That just doesn’t seem fair. I personally think consistency is key…..if a country, society, community etc decides an individual has dominion over their body and the right to modify in a way that may or may not be in their best interest then that’s what we have to stick with in “ALL CASES” not just ones we feel comfortable with! So if a woman can get an elective abortion, hysterectomy, or a fuckin’ boob job for Christ’s sake a man should be able to take similar action. And for the femi nazis who want to vilify men and make them out to be perverts always looking for sexual gratification I know a HUGE group of people that would be alot more comfortable allowing men to surgically remove their parts then watch an abortion. I say if a guy wants to do it, give him the option to do so safely and if he hates it or regrets it tough shit…his life his choice bottom line.

    • GallusMag Says:

      I think there should be free clinics set up on every corner that do nothing but chop off guys dicks and balls 24/7. So I don’t know wtf you are whining about.

      • red Says:

        xxx

        Do they pass their lede paras around? Snore.

      • liberalsareinsane Says:

        Yeah exactly. What’s this bozo talking about? Gawd, another whiny stupid male who completely missed the point and thinks it’s all about him!

        “WOMEN ARE SO MEAN” “I GOT RIGHTS TO YA KNOW”!! “TAKE MY COCK AND BALLS NOW”!!


      • I’m with you, Gallus. The fewer dicks/balls in the world, the better! Why on earth would this asshole think we oppose getting rid of the source of so many of the world’s problems? :p

    • Adrian Says:

      FWIW it’s actually pretty damn hard for a woman to get any elective surgeries that will render her sterile, including the “usual” “get your tubes tied” permanent birth control.

      All the time it’s about how you’ll regret it, what if you want another kid (heaven forbid you not have any kids, then they really won’t even consider it), you’re too young, it goes on.

      Abortion is still legal in the US, but it’s hardly uncontroversial, politicians are trying to take away the right every day, and when they can’t pass laws banning it they do their utmost to make the procedure next to impossible to get (defunding clinics, hounding doctors out of the state, etc).

      Personally I’m all in favor of you being able to nullo yourself if that’s what you want to do. Goodness knows there were enough stories (with pics!) about such things on bmezine.com back in the day. Bifurcated penis? Old hat…

      I’ll add that plenty of those penectomies on bmezine were self-done. If you really want it, well… there’s a community out there that can probably hook you up. Just sayin’.

      • Motherhood Says:

        Hit your 30′s with over 5 pregnancies under your belt they will tie them. Be on medicaid and give birth–they practically threaten you to get them tied at the birth or my personal fav they let the labor go too long so that urinary incontince increases with each birth. In some communities it is running at 30% worse than Africa. Two if not more tiers of medical care in this country for women.

  39. Motherhood Says:

    GM how you get through that post. My reaction: he is disappointed. Okay let’s rally to meet his expectations. I have it on the calender as the second day of never. A mans desire to have his dick cut off, surely he assumes somehow this interests us . . . how? Because it very very important and really matters a lot.

  40. John Karrah Says:

    Dude those people need help, but psyquiatric one

  41. J C Says:

    I’m considering anti-androgens and/or orchiectomy, and I wanted to respond to this post and some of the comments and see what people think.

    Another commenter compared this to BIID, but wanting castration seems different from wanting a healthy arm or leg cut off, because we’re talking about the source of a hormone with systemic effects. Some men do have castration fetishes, but I don’t feel that every biological male seeking castration is a fetishist. I’ve simply had a growing aversion to the effects of testosterone on my body and mind (along with my male genitals) since the onset of puberty, and no combination of therapy, medication, and the passage of time (I’m in my late 20s) has made this go away. Even if MTF/FTM transition is viewed as not legitimate or not advisable, is it possible that there are some people with sex/gender issues for whom some sort of hormonal and/or surgical change (like anti-androgens/orchiectomy) might be the appropriate response?

    • Aeropagus Says:

      You do have to figure in that after you remove your testicles you bones and teeth will be at a significantly greater for decay. There are the hot flashes and night sweats, which may sound innocuous, but they can be extraordinarily disruptive and make life miserable. There is the gynecomastia, the cognitive issues, the penile atrophy. There is a major issue with self-confidence: androgens boost self-confidence. Depression is pretty much guaranteed to come with hypogonadism (androgens can alleviate that too, yup).

      I hope your future partners are okay with being with a tiny-breasted man with a shrunken penis, diminished cognitive abilities,

      You want a good idea of what voluntary eunuchs can look forward to, to what its like? Talk to the guys over at the Eunuch Archive.

      Also you are consenting to be removed from the gene pool. If that matter to you. Maybe it doesn’t now, but it may one day.

      “Even if MTF/FTM transition is viewed as not legitimate or not advisable”

      Going HRT-free is what is not advisable. You can choose estrogens or androgens, but you’re going to suffer if you choose neither.

      Note: if you decide to go back to androgens it will never be the same as if you are producing your own hormones in-house. You *will* be choosing to permanently disable yourself if you choose orchidectomy.

      “might be the appropriate response?”

      Of course you know that removing a functional body part for psychological reasons (sounds so much like BIID, hmmm) is not an appropriate response. If that’s something you want to do, then yippee for you. Don’t fool yourself with silly rationalizations though. You’re choosing to disable and deform yourself to try to alleviate emotional/mental issues.

      I’ve been there and am there and know way too much about this crap. You want to find out how wonderful eunuch life can be? Go visit the Eunuch Archive forums.

      • Areopagus Says:

        Oh, when I meant to add: Go to.. forums: it ain’t pretty. Are you want to do *that*?

      • J C Says:

        I guess I should have clarified that having researched this off and on over the course of ten years, I am well aware of the potential for the side effects that you have mentioned. I’m certainly open to the possibility of low-dose HRT to prevent some of them and/or reduce their severity. I’ve read plenty of personal narratives on the Eunuch Archive forums, and I agree that nobody should go into this lightly.


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