Reasons transgender folks are angry at Gay Male Drag Queen “Skye High” for doing this ad

December 12, 2012

bourbon.jpg

Drag is offensive to trans people because no one can tell the difference between a man in female drag and a man with a personal internal sense of feeling like what he imagines a reproductively female person feels like.

He should have dressed more flamboyantly, with a giant headdress perhaps, to signify that he is a male who “performs” female for entertainment purposes, as distinguished from a man who “performs” female because he is trying to disguise himself to pass as female for personal lifestyle or sexual fetish reasons.

Drag queens should only model in advertisements that appear in Gay publications, so that the public will know they are gay.

Cocks in Frocks should never ever be portrayed with humor.

Men wearing dresses should not be permitted to use the men’s bathroom and should instead use the women’s.

Some male transgenders prefer to sit to urinate. The ad may lead the public to believe all males who perform female-assigned gender choose to use urinals to void.

The ad implies that the viewer needs to “stay strong” to deal with sharing the men’s restroom with a female impersonator, which implies that female impersonators are not a desirable person to share a restroom with.

Any ad featuring female impersonation should explicitly convey a pro-transgender message.

Photos of Drag Queens should only be used for personal promotion of their entertainment services and never used in advertising campaigns.

Transgender males are victims of hate crimes more frequently than Gay men or Drag Queens.

Drag Queens are “triggering” to lifestyle transgender males, especially the heterosexual ones.

The public may think trans males are gay, when in fact the majority are heterosexual men who want to be “lesbians”.

The fact that he is smiling gives the viewer permission to not take transphobia seriously.

His failure to “pass” as convincingly female makes him a distasteful example of gender failure.

Drag is funny, Trans is tragic.

https://www.facebook.com/wipeouttransphobia

http://www.change.org/petitions/vok-beverages-don-t-publish-your-transphobic-ad

Hetero male trans attack on gay drag queen

Hetero male trans attack on gay drag queen

Skye High responds:

Skye High Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on the ads I recently featured in. Firstly let me start by saying I was not portraying a transgendered person in the Bearded Lady Bourbon advertisement. I am in fact a gay man that dresses in drag as an artist, to which I’ve been doing for over 20 years. This has been made very clear on all levels of social media.

At no point have I ever considered myself or portrayed myself as a transgendered individual, nor would I ever do so, nor do I hold any “phobia” to any individuals. I would also like to highlight that throughout the entire shoot for this campaign I was treated by the entire crew with the utmost respect and dignity just as any professional artist would be. Regardless of my own sexual identity, there was never any pretence that I was a transgendered person, nor trying to be one.

When I was presented with the Bearded Lady Bourbon campaign I saw it as a great opportunity to participate in a campaign that I believe is twofold. To me these ads show the acceptance of a drag queen in mainstream society and more importantly, I’m showing society that I’m not going to be intimidated by those people who may consider me being less of a person than them.

All three of the Bearded Lady Bourbon print ads, which aren’t connected in any way with each other, but all carry the same “STAY STRONG” message, implying that there are times in life that you need to do just that, regardless of the circumstances you find yourself in and sometimes a quick shot of liqour can help. That’s the connection between the brand and the picture.

Although my belief is “STAY STONG” in every situation and don’t allow yourself to succumb to those who want to put you down or cast negativity on what you believe or more importantly, who you are. I see this ad as the representation that although we’re different to each other, it’s important that we’re true to ourselves. I am proud of who I am and the representation of these advertisements.

If you look at me as a drag queen (which I am), whose standing at a urinal with the slogan “Stay Strong”, you may see a man who’s proud to dress in drag, living his life and not worrying about the stigma of what others may think, if caught in that very situation. I believe this to have a very positive cogitation?

As a society, sometimes I believe we’re too quick to find the negative. At no point was there malice or a derogatory motive behind this campaign, or toward my transgendered friends or that of the greater Trans community, to whom I respect and hold in high regard. In fact I am and will continue to be a demonstrated activist within the GLBTIQ community and positively advocate the rights of all those who fall into each letter of our community to the benefit of all society.

Unfortunately I can’t say the same for some who speak so openly and so highly of equality and acceptance without slur or labels, whist promoting that all people are entitled to the same human rights, sadly some of these same people have been the first to make threats or openly berate me as “a transphobic piece of sh#t”, “a wanker”, “a transphobic idiot”, “a homophobic c%nt”, just to name a few. Isn’t that a double standard shown by these who supposedly encourage equality and acceptance? How are those actions positively promoting any community?

Whilst I acknowledge and understand that some may have seen aspects of this particular campaign as a negative or transphobic, I have also been overwhelmed by the support from not only trans people but gay and straight people around the world, for me taking on an approach to diminish the fear, intolerance and insecurities that people have about others, who may seem different to their own way of life.

Furthermore I strongly believe that by having people or persons from all facets of the GLBTIQ community shown in mainstream media, we are one step closer to acceptance and this is something I believe we all want. It seems the more we, as a community run away from the challenge of societal acceptance, the less power we have to educate the mainstream. If this belief makes me a person with no integrity or moral values, as highlighted by some, then for that I apologise.

As for the urinal photo itself, you may see it to be vulgar, tacky or cliché and that’s your right to think that, although I’m representing myself as a drag queen, whist playing out a commonly seen scenario in my life, which has sadly lead to some individuals wishing to ban something that reflects an honest and real life situation.

I’m not asking anyone to change their mind, view or beliefs, as I believe all opinions are valid and all voices need to be heard, but what I do ask; in any situation you’re faced with, no matter how vulnerable you feel at that time or how hopeless you think a situation is, remember “STAY STRONG” is a positive affirmation to those people who are truly living the life they want.

With love and respect to you all. Skye High xxx

54 Responses to “Reasons transgender folks are angry at Gay Male Drag Queen “Skye High” for doing this ad”

  1. K Says:

    Women NOT wanting men in dresses to be in the bathroom with them?!

    An ad for alcohol SUGGESTING that women are not overjoyed to have a guy whipping it out next to them!?!?!?!?!

    Gallus, this world is a friggin’ SHOCKORAMA.

  2. KittyBarber Says:

    OK, here’s how I understand this.
    I am supposed to know the difference, by looking, between a man in drag, and a ‘transgender’ man in drag.
    I am expected to tolerate ‘transgender’ men AND men in drag both using the women’s bathrooms.
    They may both have male genitalia, and probably do.
    And, as a Lesbian, I am expected to be offended by one, but not by the other.
    WTF.

    • Becky Green Says:

      Yup! If the public thinks about it too much, they’ll realize the line of differentiation between the two groups has been arbitrarily set and is in a constant state of flux.

    • Octavia Wright Says:

      Yeah fuck off for calling transgender women “men in drag”.

      • GallusMag Says:

        You are a bit daft and inarticulate but you are correct that the definition of “transwoman” is simply any guy like yourself that imagines himself to “feel like” the objectified version of women that he holds in his head.
        There is no objective characteristic of a “transwoman” beyond the thoughts of a man about himself vis a vis women.

        In its totality, “transwoman” is a word that describes a man’s private thoughts about women. In the case of men who call themselves “transwomen” the substance and humanity of female human beings exist for him only via his thoughts about them.

      • GallusMag Says:

        ManBrain:

  3. moosey Says:

    I have no problem with this at all. He has no intention of using the women’s bathroom. I’m all for men wearing dresses and whatever the hell they like as long as they admit they’re males!

    • Adrian Says:

      This. Also I interpret his message as from the drag guy to himself (as he says in his Facebook too) – he’s staying strong, just doing his own thing.

      Of course there’s a long standing “don’t associate US with THEM!!!!11!” hue and cry from the various “true transsexuals” that’s been going on forever. If this guy is happily out and noticed in the media, it might make “mainstream” people realize that it’s possible to be a man in a dress and not insist on being a woman, that it’s possible to gender-bend without having existential psychological crises of being, and that performing “feminine” doesn’t make you a woman.


      • I have never slammed drag queens but there is a difference between what a drag queen represents and what I represent. I’m sure gallus your position is that I’m gay man so just stay consistent the opposite opinion thing my position is gay men and lesbians are confused Transsexuals.. :)


      • Also even though I don’t share an LGBTQ identity with Skye high I like what he has say and his attitude. I think there should be room for all of the opinions in and outside the LGBTQ identities.

    • Brunhilda Says:

      Exactly! He is actually doing something positive to get rid of gender, by dressing up in the stereotyped clothes of a woman, but saying, ‘no, i’m not a woman, I’m a man, and I’m still a worthwhile person’ and that’s no doubt why trans hate him – trans worship gender, and worship the idea that they are women because of what they like/wear, and are obsessed with giving a sex to inanimate objects (eg. ‘dresses are female’ )

  4. fwancis Says:

    Ha, I remember the stink the trans brigade made when that tampon ad featuring a drag queen came out. TRANSPHOBIC!!!!!!!!1 PULL THE AD!!!!

    They dun like drag queens because drag queens (unintentionally) demonstrate how nonsensical the twanz philosophy is.

    How do you distinguish a M2T from a drag queen? He takes himself SUPER SRSLY

  5. thistlespace Says:

    Thank you for hitting the mark in such an intelligent, sad humor kind of way. I was called out for being transphobic for a workshop proposal on anarcha-feminism that I wanted to do at the Twin Cities Anarchist Book Fair. I was unaware of how weird and misogynist transgender politics was at the time it happened and hadn’t even mentioned transgender in my workshop description. It was not something I was prepared to address, nor was I intending to address it. A friend of mine posted to the Twin Cities Anarchist Book Fair’s facebook event page that shutting down a workshop on anarchafeminism was censorship and that’s when, in front of hundreds of anarchists across the country, I received threats of violence multiple times. I decided not to attend the fair. I would like to send you my zine “Musings on Manarchy in the Midwest” if you are interested in this story. Just send me an email to thistle@riseup.net and I will send you the attachment. Thank you so much for speaking out! I really needed to read this article today — it helps me to see how fucked up it has become in our society, and just how patriarchal it is.

  6. EqualRightsAndProtection Says:

    See, I thought they were upset simply because the “bearded lady” was using the men’s room. If he’d been shown sitting on a toilet in a women’s bathroom, then we’re just transphobic for being offended. In this case, he’s obviously bending his gender the wrong way for the behavior thought police.

    • EqualRightsAndProtection Says:

      Yup. From Skye High’s comments, he was gender bending. And the trans police don’t like gender bending.

      When is the LBG community going to wake up and see the controlling and homophobic aspects of the trans movement?

    • Adrian Says:

      Yeah. The ad is showing a bad precedent, from the trans* POV. He’s making light of their situation, etc.

      I mean, some guy decides one day that he wants to join the group “women” and get whatever benefits he seems to think society gives women. (People open doors for women! Expectations and pressure are less for women! Women can just get married to a guy with money and don’t have to work! As a woman I could break boundaries and be extra strong and ass-kicking! Etc) As justification, he says, well, look, I want to wear this and that, I want to play with dolls, I’m nurturing, whatever else.

      According to him, that means he’s a woman “inside.” He has a female brain! And this is such a serious issue, that if he’s not allowed to transition and legally become “F” on his driver’s license and use the women’s room, he’ll kill himself!!

      …but then this drag queen comes along, wearing those same clothes and all the rest but happily admitting he’s male. He’s using the men’s room. Ruins the whole setup!

      So there’s been a campaign for a while by the “true transsexuals” to say that in fact they don’t want to be under the “LGBT” umbrella at all, because they very specifically don’t want to have anything at all to do with “mere transvestites” and “crossdressers” and “queens,” they want you to accept that they have “female brains, REALLY” and the penis is in fact just an inconvenient birth defect.

      The general public already has a hard time buying that, and seeing drag queens just makes them fall out of the illusion again.

      It does make me wonder what the “right” image would be though. Probably it would need to be someone in the women’s room (for what reason, I dunno – perhaps a makeup ad) who is obviously trans* (because if not, no visibility!) but yet only baaaaarely noticeable, and all the people around him would have to be behaving in some way that would show that they obviously accept him as “woman” with open arms.

  7. michelle Says:

    They are pissed because one of the ones they dragged under their umbrella refuses to drink the kool-aid and engage in group-think. At least we know they also try to censor their own…proving once again that it is a bunch of men who only want things their way, and if they cannot get it their way, they will pitch one hell of a fit LOL!

  8. hearthrising Says:

    If straight men get used to the idea of men-in-drag going into the men’s room, it will be safe for transwomen to use the men’s room (or at least as safe as it is for any male). Then transactivists will be deprived of their only convincing argument for transwomen using women’s bathroom and locker facilities. That’s why they don’t like this ad.

    • mizknowitall Says:

      (Actor 1, man in ill-fitting and ass ugly dress)
      Sharp intake of breath! “WHAT? And leave the fantasy behind?” (cue, dramatic swoon… then, fall down!)

      Hearthrising?
      You just hit the trans-bullshit dead center! All their noise. All their excuses… all their rationalized “Safety” reasoning for “their intense need” to use the women’s room… To the million and one excuses why they cannot and will not get surgery (but dick or not, they still need to be legally declared to be female like ten min ago) is simply a ruse! A ruse designed by men with peculiar sexual fetish. A ruse designed to allow these men to have full and unfettered access to women’s spaces! And the ONLY reason they want that access? Trust me, it has NOTHING to do with safety! Rather it is because being in women’s spaces fuels their fantasy! End of story! Oh? And for the record? It is like major bonus points if they can at the same time get the real women occupying those spaces to play their favorite game; “I’m so special! I’m a man, look at me!” That’s why MWMF is such a tempthing target!…Just think! All those thousands upon thousands of women! All of them paying their hard earned dollars, not to hear mediocre to OK music in the mud with other women… Not to share an experience… No these women are there there waiting, only so they can all pay attention to these men! (with the thought of it, cue second swoon!)
      MKIA

    • Becky Green Says:

      That is such a great point. I hadn’t even thought of that angle. It could limit their access to the places they hold most “sacred”, i.e., female bathrooms and changing rooms; their Holy Land(s)!

    • Guls Says:

      In some of the gay/lesbian clubs in Brighton (UK) everybody uses the same bogs anyway – male/female/trans whatever. As a straight, ‘cis’, guy I have no probs with that at all, in fact it seems to encourage cock-owners to behave theselves and respect the facilities – in contrast to boys’ rooms in ‘straight’ venues where the floors are awash with piss, stalls are blocked with unflushed paper and the stink is unbearable. Not sure if that’s cos women won’t tolerate the mess or cos guys wouldn’t be seen dead acting like stinky slobs in front of them, but it seems to work so maybe that’s the way forward? Has the added advantage of giving confused shims one less place to ‘invade’. I recognise that not everywhere is as welcoming/tolerant of diversity as my lovely hometown, though.

      • Noanodyne Says:

        “As a straight, ‘cis’, guy I have no probs with that at all”
        Oh, thank god, a man is happy with women in his bathroom! Our work here is done!!

        You complete moron, this isn’t about whether you — a man who never has to worry about another MAN in your bathroom — think everyone in one bathroom is the very picture of “diversity.” If men would get over their sense of entitlement 1) we wouldn’t have to worry about men demanding to be allowed in women’s bathrooms and 2) men wouldn’t think it was perfectly fine to do the disgusting things they do and 3) it wouldn’t be up to women to prevent men from doing the entitled, abusive, and disgusting things they do.

  9. Grace Says:

    @EqualRightsAndProtections

    When is the WORLD community going to wake up and see the genicide, controlling and trans-misandry/trans-misogyny of the RadFem movement?

    How are we ever going to move on from saying ‘I’m a feminist’ and then having to quickly add ‘I don’t hate men’? Its not possible, man hating is throughout the curriculum.

    Feminism is a hate movement in its populous stage. From the SCUM manifesto, to statements about transgendered women that positively would fit right in at a Nuremberg rally, ‘womyn born womyn’, to the unconscious misandry inherent in articles and books I have read. The subtext of feminism is inherently anti-men.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Sir, you are an MRA.
      Trans & MRA = Perfect Together

      You are correct in characterizing the Gender Movement as a Men’s Rights movement sir.

    • Adrian Says:

      You can’t “identify” your way out of privilege.

      No women are trying to kill you. No women are telling you you can’t wear whatever you want, no women are telling you you can’t have whatever surgeries you want, no women are telling you you can’t engage in whatever supposedly “feminine” behaviors you want.

      People are just pointing out that none of that stuff actually makes you a woman. You have male privilege.

      Is there violence against trans women? Sure. FROM MEN. Don’t go blaming women (radfem or otherwise) for it just because they seem an easier target.

      As for “the subtext of feminism is inherently anti-men” – I’m sure it seems that way from where you sit, but the similar dynamic happens with any rhetoric of actual oppressed groups when talking about their oppressors as a group. Doesn’t say anything about individuals.

      Because we still unfortunately live under the patriarchy, as a class women are oppressed by men. People pointing out your privilege and letting you know that as a privileged person you do not have access to certain safe spaces is not a hate movement.

    • Marie-France Lesage Says:

      Bzzzzzttt! Dude. Godwin’s Law. Google it.

      You are sooooooooooooooo busted!

    • EqualRightsAndProtection Says:

      Dude, when you stop trying to destroy gay children and invade women’s spaces with penises, we can have a conversation. Until then, we are not going to see eye-to-eye.

      Gender identity therapy for children is as repulsive as gay conversion therapy. It’s essentially a type of the same thing only with drugs and surgery to boot.

      If you have a penis, you are male. I don’t care what legislature you swindle into legislating your point of view on dodgy science. The public is waking up.

      I’ll post a standard disclaimer here. I’m not a radfem. I’m a heterosexual married liberal female who has been horrified by recent events. And my type is going to be your community’s worst nightmare.

    • Guls Says:

      Garbage. The nuance you seem to be missing is best summed up by that renowned, mythical historical figure whose birthday we’re imminently celebrating – ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’. As a man I’ve never felt hated by any of the feminist writers I’ve read – what they hate, fear, object to, and quite rightly, is unfairness, discrimination and violence: it’s about the behaviour, not the person. We all deserve love and respect for who we are, and it’s only when we’re uncomfortable with who/what we are that we (can – it’s a choice) resort to trying to force the world to change to conform to our image of ourselves, by means of duplicity and violence. If you perceive feminism as a hate movement, that behoves you to look at yourself: what makes me uneasy with – some exponents of – the trans ‘community’ are the parallels with the means employed by some of my ‘fellow’ males to establish their position. Bullying, to be blunt. If you really claim the exclusive right of ‘female-identified’ males to dress ‘feminine’ and would deny it to gay (or straight) ‘cis’ men, then you fail to apprehend the true nature and significance of gender imo. You perceive a threat where there really is none. If there’s any criticism to be levelled at ‘drag’ performers it’s misogyny; some drag queens are misogynistic; though by no means all. I have no beef with trans/intersex folk per-se – be who you are, dress how you like – just don’t project you discomfort onto others, which by concocting this spurious notion of ‘cis’ is exactly what you’re doing – gender and sexuality are fluid and various. ‘Cis’ reintroduces the notion of dichotomy and isn’t that just playing back into the hands of the establishment that you claim as your oppressor? Oh, and Solonas is scarcely typical of feminist thought – and isn’t typical feminist an oxymoron anyway – in the ’60s, never mind the ’00s. Anarchical almost to the point of parody imo. Pardon the cliche, but I think you need to take a chill pill. Peace and love,

      Andy.

  10. radicalwoman Says:

    Well it’s the ultimate threat, right? Showing that you can prefer to wear women’s clothing and still be indisputably male and proud of it?
    It destroys everything the transcult is trying to say.

    • Marie-France Lesage Says:

      Precisely! There is nothing “female” about a drag queen’s penis, either.

      No “lady stick” insanity among those dudes. No lesbian stalking.

      Their straight talk about gay male sex would make a sailor blush.

      (I lived next door to a group of them and they’d do my make-up for me and take me around to the bars when I was a lonely 17-year-old college freshman.)

  11. Ave Says:

    What’s the difference between a drag queen and transsexual? 10,000 dollars and a plastic surgeon – Ru Paul

  12. Marie-France Lesage Says:

    This is why I draw a fairly bright-line distinction between drag queens (gay male cross-dressers) and heterosexual male “trans women”.

    I think a lot of drag queens think like Skye. They know they’re male. They like being male. The get their sexy time with other males. They use the men’s room. They are not demanding that I pretend that they’re Real Girls ™ and they’re not trying to coerce my lesbian sisters (or me!!!) into servicing their Lady Cocks. Ew.

    The heterosexual male “trans women” are (to a man?) as crazy as a bag of wombats. They obsess over passing. They throw hissy fits if you happen to notice that they’re NOT passing (6’8″? hello?!?) They try to force themselves on unwilling, frightened and/or pissed off women ALL THE TIME — and girls! They try to force their crap on LITTLE GIRLS.

    *** insert the sound of me blowing up my blood pressure cuff again ***

    Farking monsters. They’re bullies and creeps. Their behavior disgusts me.

    Drag queens tend to have a very self-deprecating sense of humor — the whole diva schtick is just that: a schtick. It’s no more real than the Professional Wrestling goof-balls.

    They’re actors staying in character to excess, but when the show’s over and they pull off the wig and kick off the heels, they’re not saying, “I am a real woman.” they’re saying, “God, sugar, how do you women do this all the time, my feet are killing me, pass me a Diet Coke. If I gain one more pound I won’t be able to zip my favorite gown.”

    They’re playing a role. They know they’re playing a role.

    Is it a sexist role? Of course. Are they trying to force the local rape crisis center to let then play rape counselor in real life? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    Give me the most outrageous drag queen any day over an Stephen Sandeen or a Jay Ladin.

  13. Skye High Says:

    As I’m the drag queen featured in the picture above, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who took the time to read this article and leave a comment.

    I have really enjoyed reading the opinions left by you all.

    We only get one life (that we know of)……..STAY STRONG, be true to yourself and live the life you want, regardless of what others think.

    You can find me on facebook/MissHighSkye and on Twitter @misshighskye

    Thank you all again. xxx

  14. Skye High Says:

    And all I can say to Marie-France Lesage’s comment:

    “when the show’s over and they pull off the wig and kick off the heels, they’re not saying, “I am a real woman.” they’re saying, “God, sugar, how do you women do this all the time, my feet are killing me, pass me a Diet Coke. If I gain one more pound I won’t be able to zip my favorite gown.”

    is OMG yes! That is SO me!!! Ha! xxx

  15. Lucy Melford Says:

    I stumbled upon GenderTrender because of another post on this blog about Christine Benvenuto’s latest book. It seems a lively place for discussion on issues that I like to have a view on – and so I’ve added GenderTrender to my list of blogs to follow.

    Having read through all this, I think I’m perfectly at ease with Skye High’s personal and professional positions. The urinal ad is striking, and so long as you understand that is IS a drink ad, I wouldn’t personally take offence, although I can quite easily see it getting plenty of frowns in the UK unless discreetly tucked away in, say, a gay magazine. Although it’s not an ad that makes a narrowly-targeted point for the eyes of gay men only.

    Put it another way, if I were working for an advertising agency, I should shortlist this ad for use on sheer merit: it’s very attention-grabbing, and it most certainly does get the message across that ‘Bearded Lady’ bourbon makes you extraordinarily bold. If that will sell the stuff, then job done. I don’t think it mocks or degrades drag queens, nor anybody else by association. It does break a taboo against showing men’s toilets, and therefore might contravene rules on ‘conventional good taste’. But surely the average bourbon-drinking man wouldn’t be annoyed.

    Taking another tack, if a celebrated modern artist created a painting or collage, or whatever, depicting what you see in the photo, it would be assessed on its artistic merit. Nowadays that might vaidly include its shock value, and the sharpness of the social comment made. Remove the words and the bottle, and see what you now think.

    Looking at the ad, I see (at most) ‘drag queen desperate for a pee, and confidently using the nearest facilities’, and not ‘trans woman caught short’, chiefly because very few transsexual women (as properly defined) would ever use a men’s toilet, even in an emergency. As I remember them, they were smelly and basic and full of men breaking wind or worse. Not nice. Trans women generally want to do what a natal woman would do – and that’s to use women’s toilets, sitting down in a cubicle. Even if there’s a queue. Because you can chat as you wait – and that IS nice.

    As you may gather, I’m a trans woman. I wouldn’t describe myself as especially political or feminist, but I have a point of view.

    I blog at http://lucymelford.blogspot.com, if you want to check me out.

    Lucy Melford

    • Anon Male Says:

      I’m not sure stereotypes about bathrooms hold true.

      Yes, some places put more of an emphasis on making women’s bathrooms “nice” (a fake potted plant or an extra piece of pointless furniture = gender nonsense, not hygiene) but that doesn’t ensure they stay that way.

      Once a bathroom is soiled in the slightest, people of both sexes seem to go lizard brain and assume there are no rules at all. So maybe male rooms snowball more quickly into a shit show, but it just takes one paranoid woman high hovering to cause someone else to hover even higher and then all bets are off.

      Being that cleaning toilets is part of my job description, I’ve been third-party to a few miscarriages, which is no picnic, either. I can’t imagine what it’s like to go through that alone and have to high tail it out of a semi-public facility as if nothing happened. But I’m guessing that’s an aspect of being female you don’t concern yourself with much.

      “Trans women generally want to do what a natal woman would do – and that’s to use women’s toilets, sitting down in a cubicle”

      Men’s bathroom’s have toilets too. Females are perfectly capable of using them. So are male, for that matter.

      It’s hilarious that I have to point that out but gender-believers, whether “cis” or trans, tend to act like males are incapable of peeing while sitting down. And some trustworthy women buy this shit or feel required to pretend to believe it, even though they’ve seen a dude’s junk and know that it can’t possibly be too big to the point where it dangles in toilet water. Or they buy that just because one trans pervert thinks the “feminine sound of his ‘tinkle'” is arousing, that sitting down to pee would be an anathema to anyone with “masculinity.”

      I sit down to pee if I use a toilet I’m required to clean. There’s no seat up / seat down business that the gender obsessed seem to think is important for domestic bliss. Because that argument has everything to do with gender roles (aka patriarchal dominance) and not biology. Yes, I can pee standing up. I can also pee while running stark naked down the freeway. Never saw good reason to do that though.

      I suppose the existence of urinals is a concession to the inevitable escalation of mess making (once one person makes a mess, the next cares less about behaving appropriately), but I’m guessing they also flatter the egos of gender believers, whether they are the men who need to remind themselves that they’re special (aka not female) for pissing into fancy modern art exhibits. (Whether the urinals have video game targets, are shaped like women’s mouths, or have pictures of “mocking” women above.)

      And their continued existence seems to please transwomen who feel that by avoiding them, they’ve managed to transcend their own biology, even though culture and not biology is what dictated the invention of the urinal.

      No disrespect to Skye High (who has my support in this!), but compare that image to this one:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/09/south-korea-toilet-theme-park

      It’s fairly easy to say who is displaying more fortitude.

      • hearthrising Says:

        Thank you. Your perspective is enlightening.

      • EqualRightsAndProtection Says:

        You can pee while running stark naked down the freeway? That’s real talent there, Anon Male. I mean, not everyone can hit that zen and relax while running enough to dribble.

        Lucy, the toilets in the USA are quite different than they are in Britain. Here, the doors to the stalls start about 10-12″ off the floor and stop about 6.5 feet off the floor. There are also gaps around the edges where you can actually see the occupant of the stall if you are close enough to look. There’s a certain learned behavior from women not to look. But sometimes I’ve walked into a bathroom, stood in a line, glanced over, and been startled to see a women seated on the toilet. You aren’t trying to peep at them, but there is always a possibility of being seen when in a stall. It’s not like I’m pressing my eye to the gap, but the gaps are wide enough to actually see people in the stall.

        So bathrooms tend to have this sort of etiquette to them. If you are around strangers, you keep your eyes to yourself and try and focus on the wall or the line of stalls or anywhere but those gaps. We all try to pretend that we are unseen in the bathroom, but it’s hard. If you’re standing in line with friends, you do often talk to them until time for you to take your place. It keeps eyes from straying to improper places. Women are all taught from birth that nudity is a private thing.

        In Britain, the stalls were all self-contained cubicles where the walls went to the ceiling and down to the floor. In Europe, it was even more generic, with both sexes waiting in the same line for the bathroom, but using separate cubicles that shared a hand-washing area between them. I remember feeling really uneasy in that line at the idea that the men might be in the toilet area with me until I got in there and found that the cubicle was private. Sweden has mixed baths. Japan has mixed baths.

        We don’t have that here. We’re not even close. It’s one of the reasons why we fight so hard to keep anatomical males out of bathrooms. And locker rooms.

  16. moosey Says:

    do women chat while they wait to sit in their stalls?
    i don’t
    but i’m sure i’m not the kind of woman you aspire to be.

  17. Lucy Melford Says:

    Thank you for the replies addressed to my own comment! It’s a genuine education. I have been to the US, in 2007, but it was only a day in Los Angeles, in-between flights, and I experienced only the upmarket hotel facilities (which seemed UK-like, or at least ‘international’), and some half-decent public toilets at Santa Monica.

    I remember seeing the ‘one door, but dedicated cubicles’ type of facility at Florence main railway station in Italy in 2009, but elsewhere I’ve not used anything that might entail any risk of exposure except in France.

    In the UK, one must clearly bless ongoing British notions of what is seemly and proper, even if you might think it verges on prudery!

    By the way, I am successfully post-op, and would be OK about sunbathing nude at St Tropez if a hundred other women were doing the same, because I’m woman-shaped and woman-voiced. I’m sure I wouldn’t get a second glance. But I wouldn’t dream of inflicting my physicality on anyone if I were obviously going to be clocked, even if I had the legal right. My personal code of behaviour would say no.

    Lucy

  18. Marie-France Lesage Says:

    EqualRightsAndProtection – thanks for bringing up the differences between cubicles (and bathroom etiquette) here vs. other countries.

    I lived in France for a year and found that some of their bathroom situations were a HUGE improvement over anything I’ve seen in the U.S. — while others were appalling.

    I like the stalls where you’re alone in a room with floor-to-ceiling walls with no gaps and a real door with a dead-bolt latch you can only turn from the inside. I encountered many of these in France. The hand-washing area was outside the little toilet room, but when in the toilet room (enclosed stall) with the door locked you had blessed, complete privacy.

    With a half-inch gap around the doors and a ten-inch open space between the stall and the floor — not to mention that anyone willing to stand on the toilet can see right into your stall — I do NOT want biological males in the same bathroom with me, even if they call themselves Stevie instead of Steve and wear mascara. No way. No how.

  19. cherryblossomlife Says:

    Is it me, or do drag queens sound more articulate, sane and educated than tranwomen?

    • cherryblossomlife Says:

      oops, just saw that Skye High has commented here, and it has been agreed that yes, they are.
      [must stop coming late to discussions]

  20. jack Says:

    haha, I’m transgender and not only do i love drag, i perform it. You’re a moron.

  21. Eva Amore Says:

    Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that because I am a drag queen I should wear some big fancy corny headdress to signify it? Sometimes I like to wear realistic makeup and, pass as a woman this is America and, I should have the freedom to do that. This is complete and, utter bullshit.

  22. farishcunning Says:

    Gallus, this is another fascinating and informative post. The comments are (mostly) outstanding, and I appreciate you all!


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