Can There Ever Be An Alliance Between Transgenderism and Radical Feminism?

September 8, 2011

Can there ever be an alliance between trans and radical feminism? Can you imagine any way in which the interests of genderists and the interests of women can co-exist? Or even align?

As a jumping off point I am posting this thoughtful comment left by a male transgender addressing this very question.

Soran Says:

September 7, 2011 at 12:15 pm e

Warning…looooooooong post.

I’m not sure if there’s a quote feature, but…

SheilaG wrote: “Soran, that was a thoughtful comment. And perhaps T is a poison. Whatever it is, it is unfortunately M to Trans are attacking the very group that finds them horrifying in the extreme.

So the best that can come out of this, is for all male to trans to work on MALE society…. to challenge male authority, to leave women alone.

Male who transes will know that like Columbus, you bring harm to the native peoples. When you enter female land, female sensibility, you still cannot escape the male …. and no, you don’t have benefit to bring radical feminism, you have ruin intentional or not.

Attack the patriarchy of men’s worlds, challenge them. Leave born women to our own liberation from male anything.”

Wow, I really have to apologize for the long-windedness below. I don’t have a great deal of emotional intelligence to apply to my situation. The radical feminist critiques of trans culture help me apply my analytical intelligence instead. It’s calming, in the same way as being around other trans people (especially those who don’t like the ‘community’). The trans community weirds me out because of the high heels and the makeup and the drag shit, and radical feminists are the only other people who seem to see this. It’s utter doublethink, but it sucks less than thinking that I’m obligated to deform my feet to be myself. For me, the radfem criticism of trans culture has taken the pressure off.

I can’t vouch for other transwomen, and I don’t know what they mean by ‘woman.’ I don’t know what I mean by ‘woman’ in reference to the one in my head, beyond the body I think I should have. Any ‘gender role’ can only be described in stereotypical terms that simply don’t ring true for me. This is a strictly biological aversion for me. I don’t mean that I’m ‘neurologically intersex’ or whatever. I think that’s a possibility, but for now I’ll stick with what I know.

For all of human history, a rather stable proportion of the population has ‘known’ (at least in the sense that I know my mind exists) that they could not sanely carry out the physical sex role assigned to them. By this I don’t mean BS gender roles, but the act of carrying the organs themselves. This population will never disappear. Like comic-book mutants, it’s moot whether they should exist because ‘normal’ humans will keep giving birth to more. It’s also moot what the cause is, because we can’t prevent it. There are other people who reject traditional gender roles but not their genitals, but I’m not talking about them.

So am I woman, or man? Wait a minute…lemme take off my Anglo lenses (I suppose my black ass should do that more often)…

Oh! It’s a false dilemma. The transgender population does not have to subscribe to Western ‘transgender’ ideology in order to reject their birth sex. Obviously most do, but that’s the Anglo lenses. Some Native American cultures see us as a third sex with a specific role that bridges the divide between men and women. In Thailand, a kickboxer named Nong Tum continued to fight and beat men after her ‘transition’ from man to kathoey (‘ladyboy’). I wonder how interested in women’s space she is.

I think I could be very grateful for a third-sex role. I think I could find more peace there than as an American-style Transwoman®. I think trans women reject the third-sex role for what they perceive as female ‘privilege’ (passing on patriarchal terms) and a larger community to be part of. I think I lucked out here in that I’ve always been a loner, so that’s not as hard for me. For the rest of this I’ll still use the term transwomen, because that’s the closest Western description I have for men who ‘should have been born female.’ By this I do not mean that I *am* female.

The group won’t disappear. But the ideas (western transgender ideology) are horseshit. So…maybe the group can get new ideas. I realize this isn’t your problem. I’m not asking you to solve anything, but I do consider your perspective necessary to this task.

As trans women have had the harmful effect on women that we’re discussing, I think that such a reformation should be treated as ‘with-women-or-against-them.’ By this I mean that however possible, trans culture should consider itself obligated to take cues from radical feminism (on issues where they would otherwise be sure to conflict). If radical feminism changes, it shouldn’t be to better fit trans culture, but to better use it. Trans culture should be subordinate to natal women, and in a pathetic cargo-cult fashion I think it tries to be.

Reason numero uno that I think trans culture should learn from radfem culture: A mutual enemy (patriarchy, whether trans women realize it or not). If women aren’t safe and free, I’m not safe or free. I think trans women should operate on this assumption, especially when it’s false (in order to check their own male privilege).

Reason numero dos: In this culture, a person who considers ‘hirself’ a third sex will feel compelled to use the same medical and therapeutic services as a Barbie-doll transwoman. Whether this is a good thing or not, it will happen. Since the money is already flowing, I think the harm can be reduced by applying radical feminist reasoning. I also have to admit that yes, I myself want these services. If I’m going to do that and add to the demand, the least I can do is tell my therapist that I’m not there to learn gendered stereotypes.

As for OCD, most trans women I know are rather messy. Especially their cars. Beats me.

Not that I’m qualified, but I feel that the above comments are saying that a man is obligated to carry a working penis. You can’t tell me that radfems saying ‘what about the menz’ and mourning some guy’s balls isn’t kind of funny.

TRIGGER WARNING – the next paragraph pertains to rape, and it IS offensive.

PIV is natural (like rattlesnake venom and hurricanes). Rape (not consensual PIV, but rape) is the natural mode of reproduction for half of the life on the planet. Ducks are engaged in an evolutionary arms race to see which sex can convolute its genitals more, to either facilitate or prevent rape.

The evolutionary psychologists are right IMO (and aren’t trying to excuse anything, largely – laymen are doing that). It’s nature that’s wrong. And I don’t mean that sarcastically. As animals, I think patriarchy is in our genes.

By evolutionary standards, Warren Jeffs is perfect. Utterly perfect, alongside the shark and the Venus’ flytrap. He created an entire culture to spread his seed, and when he could no longer do that he self-destructed. His is the standard to beat among living things, in terms of natural selection. Conscience would have been an impediment.

But we have gained abilities beyond those of other animals, and obligations beyond them as well. Lions are entitled to patriarchy because they can’t question it. As a human I have the ability to propose that our biology itself is obsolete. And I reject it. Apparently involuntarily. What I mean is that patriarchy is a symptom of a more fundamental problem – the existence of a 50% male population. You don’t need ten men to provide DNA for ten breeding women. Or a hundred women. If men find themselves in a role where they’re expected to turn wrenches during the day and be used as communal sperm dispensers by night, I don’t think they’ll mind too much.

And joy of joys – it’s easier to neuter or hormonally feminize men than to ‘fix’ women who’ve had enough fixing.

Maybe nature does have a conscience, lol. Maybe Nature (look Ma, no balls!) has decided that men have cultivated enough farmland and should start putting down their weapons, eh? That would explain why there are so few f-to-trans and so many masochist men and voluntary eunuchs and ‘sissies.’ Not to mention the deterioration of the Y chromosome, or the fact that an active process is required to maintain it once an embryo turns male.

Of course, one must ask what magical genetic programming I assume all women have that I am missing. I don’t know. I suspect that Nature’s role for women (derailed by accidental overbreeding of male children) is to create communities, which are defended and supplied materially by men. In a sense, that women are the head and torso, while men are the arms and legs. Now imagine a person whose limbs attack them and drag them into trouble against their will. That’s humanity.

I’m thinking of your statements about acting upon male space vs. female space. First, here’s what I can tell you about the privilege I have. As it stands now I present on most days as a man. A feminine man who’s frequently called ‘she’ and ‘her’ and ‘Miss’ even when I’m in dad jeans and a tucked-in gray polo shirt, but a man. A six foot, 230lb mulatto man. So people generally leave me the fuck alone. Until I open my mouth and they realize I’m not Antoine Dodson. Then suddenly I’m Mr. Very Articulate African-American Gentleman Friend of Mine. Colorism works to my advantage. “Good hair” fetishism works to my advantage. Truth be told, I get my ass kissed even racially.

But I worry a lot about other trans women. Many trans women aren’t part of the community at all, and many of these have such feminine bodies (without any type of treatment) that they can’t pass as male. Some are almost unaware of trans culture or don’t understand it. I see them all the time in the Hispanic community. For these and many other trans women, acceptance from natal women is the only safety they have (and many get that acceptance without a second thought).

I remember one woman I saw on the train, whom I didn’t ‘clock’ until some man did. She was maybe 19, 5’4″ and 110lbs, and dressed for a casual day out, nothing I don’t see on lots of young latinas. She froze solid in absolute terror when this man started asking her if she was ‘a dude.’ I asked the guy why he didn’t mind his own fucking business and proceeded to keep his attention on me. Then I sat between him and her. That was all I could do, and then she was alone again when she got off at her stop. I think she felt just as alone when I was sitting next to her. All I could offer was basic physical safety, and she probably couldn’t be sure of that.

Imagine how much genuine love this girl would have for any natal women with whom she could travel in a pack. Said natal women would probably laugh if you asked them whether they feared the trans girl. That pack is a female space that I hope to find myself in one day, but you are right – if I push my way in, it will disappear. For one, my own mind is not yet part of that space.

And if I find a safe third-sex space, will I be comfortable with women there? Will I be comfortable with men-born-women there?

Staying away from Michfest, etc. is easy. I don’t understand what it is that trans women think they can ‘soak up’ there. Yes, my psychology is bereft of female socialization and estrogen. It’s also missing memories of moonlit summers on the French Riviera, and a Ph.D in computer science.

But what a trans woman gets by barging into a WBW space is not female socialization. It’s women responding to what they see as a man. If someone’s going to play safari and ‘study’ WBW in their ‘natural habitat,’ they could at least realize that pushing themselves into the situation changes the dynamic.

As for challenging men in their space (the streets, office, home, the moon), I don’t think trans women will be properly qualified to ‘represent’ women’s interests unless they are listening to women. Otherwise all trans women can bring against patriarchy is uninformed Nice Guy mentality.

My only suggestion to radical feminists is this: I hope that men who want to ‘disarm’ themselves eventually become useful to you, and I hope that women gain the ability to control the male birthrate.

ALL non-abusive comments which are thoughtful and which relate to the feminist topic of THIS post will be approved. Comments like “Go fuck yourself” will not be approved. For those who have already posted responses to this comment on the other thread feel free to re-post them here. Please keep nested comments to a minumum, instead quote the portion of the post you are responding to when possible.

113 Responses to “Can There Ever Be An Alliance Between Transgenderism and Radical Feminism?”

  1. GallusMag Says:

    There are really no places in which to even contemplate having this conversation, much less contemplating the potential for a future alliance.

    Male Trans write article after article, blog after blog about women. What women are like. What is womanly. What are female characteristics. What it “feels like” to be Female. But females aren’t allowed to write a single fucking word in response to them. If they do it’s a fucking “hate crime”. Disbelieving in Jesus is one thing, but disbelieving in Gender? Holy shit they’ll talk about bashing you in the head with a Louisville Slugger. They’ll say your lack of faith is like an act of murder.

    I’m getting comment after comment about how it’s a “hate crime” for me to report on the males who have widely written about how they sneak into the MWMF. Everything in my report comes from the men themselves, including the photos which they posted publicly to publicize their anti-woman activism. And yet it’s a HATE CRIME for me to write about their public actions. Sheila Jeffreys was right. It really is McCarthyism. One of the trans featured in that post wrote on his own blog how shocked he was that I allowed him to post so many comments in response to my article. These guys are shocked when, unlike them- who do not permit women to speak and comment, who INSIST that females NOT have the right to speak and comment- a blogger like myself lets them speak. Totally shocked. Because to them females interrupt their gender fantasy when they allow us to speak. We must be silenced at any cost.

    These guys have no intention of being female. They don’t want to be “Gennies” or “Cissies” which are the words they call females. They want to fetishize the sex-roles they force us into and invented. They want to fetishize and appropriate our bodies. AND they want to hold onto their male privilege, which they do.

    I’ll be back with more thoughts later.

    • Soran Says:

      GM, I wouldn’t say I’m proposing an alliance between radical feminism and transgenderism. Transgenderism has turned into an entire culture that reinforces gender stereotypes. I don’t think it can be allied with radical feminists.

      I do think that radical feminism can be part of an alternative to transgenderism. So, an alliance between radical feminists and people who refuse to stay male or female.

      I think this is actually starting to happen, in the form of ‘genderqueer’ culture and people who use pronouns like ‘hir’ and ‘zie.’ A genderqueer man doesn’t consider himself a man, but isn’t giving into the pressure to become a “woman” either.

    • Kathrin Says:

      I would like to thank you for allowing polite discussion on your site. All too often, the GLBTOMGWTFBBQ community is merely groupthink and intellectual masturbation. While I may not always agree 100% with radical feminist tenets, radfems are often the only ones who are willing to speak up, to question the lies, and the fantasies.

      As I said in another comment, I can’t speak for “the community as a whole”. I can, however, speak for myself and some of my experiences.

      I’m sorry that radfems end up dealing with messes from the “T community”. I guess it’s nothing new for women to be picking up after men, but having a history of something doesn’t make it right (now there’s an understatement).

      Speaking only for myself, I don’t understand the part of me that says “I should be female”. I won’t claim the term, nor the spaces, but that drive is a part of me.

      People who colonize the the terms female from others in a narcissistic manner tie up a large amount of their identity with that identification. When it is brought into question (as it rightfully should be!), it feels to them like you are attacking their world.

      If you would permit me to do so, I would like to reply to one part of your comment in particular. Specifically, where you indicated that they “[have no intention of being female].” I can’t speak to the general case, but I do know that many of us want that literally so bad it hurts. (I’m not saying that it’s a possibility, just a desire.)

      I had an incident tonight where I was sexually harassed on a public street because I was seen as female. I’m not looking for sympathy, and I’m not going to go into a whole lot of detail, but I was in a position where I felt utterly powerless, and afraid I might end up raped or dead. When I called the police, the female officer treated me like a criminal and insinuated that I was in the “wrong part of town”. This is one of many examples of institutional, structural, and interpersonal discrimination that I’ve faced because I was seen as female.

      Given how bad the small portion I’ve seen is in the short time it’s been an issue, I *know* that it must be far worse for someone who is born female in this world. I came from a reasonably wealthy white family – I am tall, was rather strong, did well economically, am fairly intelligent, and have a history of successful business – all things that helped insulate me from a lot of the problems, and still do so today.

      Despite all that, if I was given the opportunity to a) wake up tomorrow with my drive to transition gone, or b) “roll the dice” and be born again into a random female body somewhere on the planet (random country, risk of health issues, economic status, etc.), I’d take the latter without any hesitation (though I might have some remorse). It may not be the most rational decision, but it’s the one I would take. I’ve gotten rid of as much of my “male privilege” as I know how to, and would gladly get rid of the rest if I could figure out how to.

      For what it’s worth, we don’t all want to look like Barbie, or fit into the stereotypes (although a lot of the surgeons and therapists would want us to). At the end of the day, their livelihood (and many people’s identity) depends on there being something to transition from, and to – a line that one can go “I don’t belong on this side, therefore I must be on that side”. “I played with barbies when I was young, therefore I’m a girl.” When you break down gender stereotypes, it gets to be much harder to justify a “point” to transition – you can be who you are, so why do you need to change the body?

      I’m sorry for the long (delayed) comment, but brevity is not one of my strong points.

  2. Bev Jo Says:

    I agree, Gallus. Just the fact that any female who speaks at all for female-only space is given death threats, says it all. I don’t see the men who say they are our allies trying to deal with that at all.

    This man lost me with his pretend heterosexist “science” lesson. No, PIV is not “natural.” How dare he implicate forces of nature and animals with that? If nature made a mistake, it’s with the damaged y chromosome surviving. And women’s compassion towards those who do them harm.

    Soran tries to make male dominance and rape appear so natural, so inevitable — so who are we to object? He says “patriarchy is in our genes.” No. Not at all. Are we to just go passive and take it, take the rape that patriarchy represents?

    He compares beautiful sharks and carnivorous plants to the male evil personified in Warren Jeffs? He calls him “perfect?” I don’t care what game he plays to say this. Jeffs’ ability to “spread his seed” is absolutely dwarfed by most insects, spiders, rodents, and many other animals. But, like most men, Soran is obsessed by reproduction and semen. He is full of himself to the point of missing what is all around him. He tries to sound so reasonable — the exceptional pretend-woman — but succeeds in showing his male arrogance in how he must lecture and teach us, since he knows best. Interesting the reference to Jeffs since both Jeffs and “trans” are patriarchal cults.

    “Lions are entitled to patriarchy because they can’t question it.” What human male arrogance again. Female lions fight patriarchy their entire lives by living in all-female communities with their young. They know more clearly than most female humans how males rape and kill.

    I guess Soran does prove the answer the question — no, of course there can’t be an alliance between Radical Feminism and “transgenderism.” No more than there can be an alliance between nature and vampires, because the one exists and the other doesn’t. One is real and the other is illusion.

    • Soran Says:

      See my response to GM – I’m turning away from transgenderism because of radical feminism.

      Whatever you want to say about acts, the anatomy of rape exists and is not an invention. Cats and dogs and giant squid are all carrying the weapon, and – say what you will – anyone who gets castrated (and the guys we were talking about were NOT transgender, just eunuchs) has disabled the weapon itself.

      Maybe you believe that nature is some spiritual force that means us well. Yes, it’s beautiful. Fire is also beautiful. But whether it warms us or kills us is not something the fire chooses. I also believe that capitalism is bad *because* it is a manifestation of natural selection in an arena where natural selection should not apply. We are competing among ourselves, as animals do, but we have gotten too good at it and we have no constraints on our competition.

      If you’re offended by my references to nature because you have a spiritual attachment to it, I understand. I have a similar attachment (holy shit – we’re made of stardust!). But I see it as a light side/dark side thing. I don’t think nature is a thinking being that has intent, and I don’t think we can use nature to justify our actions.

      Let me say that again: Even if the evolutionary psychologists are right about everything, it excuses nothing. It simply tells us how big the problem is.

      Coulda sworn I said that PIV was natural AND harmful. Of Warren Jeffs I said: “Conscience would have been an impediment [to his supposed ‘perfection’].”

      I used Warren Jeffs *because* he is evil. Did you seriously think I was trying to score brownie points by endorsing someone my reader hates? Why on Earth would I bring him up as an example, except as an example of something bad?

      Jeffs acts out natural selection to the exclusion of conscience, and because of this he is a monster. He is only ‘perfect’ if one thinks that people are only supposed to do what natural selection dictates. A human being (which Jeffs is not, IMO) is human because they do NOT follow every impulse.

      How is Jeffs’ (as a microcosm of patriarchy) ability to spread his genes dwarfed by anything else? Humanity is killing the planet because patriarchy leads us to outbreed everything else. We use nuclear power not because it’s good for us, but because capitalism is another form of natural selection and capitalism dictates that we do whatever is most profitable.

      Human life has value because despite natural selection and its impulses, we have a choice NOT to do like Jeffs. This is why ethics matter – if we ignore them, we will do whatever biological impulses tell us to do. If we use ethics, the first thing they tell us is that we are full of impulses we should not follow.

      This is why I said patriarchy is “natural (***like hurricanes, which are natural AND bad***).” We don’t have to accept nature. We don’t have to accept rape. And people with penises don’t have to keep or use them. The whole trans culture is bullshit, but my entire point was that radical feminism is what got me thinking about how people who reject being ‘men’ can do that (and reject PIV) without mocking women.

      ““Lions are entitled to patriarchy because they can’t question it.” What human male arrogance again. Female lions fight patriarchy their entire lives by living in all-female communities with their young. They know more clearly than most female humans how males rape and kill.”

      Exactly. You said I shouldn’t implicate animals? We ARE animals, but human arrogance tells us we have no natural impulses to resist. Rape existed before human men existed. That is how big a problem it is. It’s not solely cultural – lions aren’t watching TV. The difference between men and lions is that men can be trained to do something else – IF you know what it is that you are fighting. Mindless, thoughtless natural selection is what we are fighting, and both patriarchy and capitalism are examples of it.

  3. Nik Says:

    “If they do it’s a fucking “hate crime”. Disbelieving in Jesus is one thing, but disbelieving in Gender? Holy shit they’ll talk about bashing you in the head with a Louisville Slugger. They’ll say your lack of faith is like an act of murder.”

    This issue of gender identity is definitely one of the issues that I think separates most third wavers from radfems. I think it gets expressed by a lot of older transfolks as an inherent part of your brain (the extreme of which involves talking about a “male brain” and a female brain”) which is obviously horseshit. That’s not how I understand it, nor how I learned it (unlike Soran, I’m talking specifically about gender-nonconforming people, rather than those who wish to make drastic changes to their body, because it’s what I know more about).

    Gender is something which is socially constructed with, I would imagine, a minimal causal relationship with biological sex. Everyone personality and sense of self mesh or don’t mesh somewhat differently to their assigned gender role, and those differences are how I would define gender identity. This certainly manifests emotionally, but if there’s a feeling (absent social conditioning) associated with being either biological sex, I haven’t consciously experienced it. For me at least, taking on the roles associated with the other sex has been a coping mechanism made in selfish compromise with a fucked up system.

    In a way, this is behavior that reinforces patriarchy. When a male-bodied person adopts traits that are more commonly associated with the female sex (shaving legs or body hair, imitating a higher voice, etc.) in an attempt to be perceived as more “feminine”, they are reinforcing the notion that women are naturally more feminine, obviously perpetuating patriarchy.

    If that act of compromise with the patriarchal system is a deal-breaker for radfems, then a point of alliance may be functionally impossible.

    • Soran Says:

      In a way, this is behavior that reinforces patriarchy. When a male-bodied person adopts traits that are more commonly associated with the female sex (shaving legs or body hair, imitating a higher voice, etc.) in an attempt to be perceived as more “feminine”, they are reinforcing the notion that women are naturally more feminine, obviously perpetuating patriarchy.

      And what if they do these things but do not claim to be women? What if a guy just plain says, “I’m a man and I wear skirts?” Or is this what you meant by gender-nonconforming people?

      • Cathy Brennan Says:

        Soran – I think I love you.

      • Nik Says:

        “And what if they do these things but do not claim to be women? What if a guy just plain says, “I’m a man and I wear skirts?” Or is this what you meant by gender-nonconforming people?”

        I would certainly consider that person to be gender-nonconforming. Whether that act has impacts which reinforce patriarchy, I don’t know.

      • DaveSquirrel Says:

        Whether that act has impacts which reinforce patriarchy, I don’t know.

        Simply, it does jackshit against patriarchy, because such a small percentage are doing it.

        Remember the 60s? Dudes with long hair – shock horror! Did this gender non-conformity do anything to dismantle patriarchy? Nope.

        Dudes, because they are dudes, have the privilege of ‘playing around’ with gender (roles and appearances) because they are at the top of the gender foodchain. Females are more heavily policed into conforming to ‘be feminine’.


      • Or he’s a Scot, Nik. See, wearing skirts there is feckin’ manly.

  4. GallusMag Says:

    Thank you Bev and Nik.

    Come on haters- you’ve been given an OPEN platform to express your thoughts, as long as you do it non-abusively. Or is being abusive half- or all- the fun???
    Is injecting critical thought too much when what you were really looking for is a female punching-bag?
    I’ve done posts about my farts that have gotten more comments than this OPEN POST. Very telling.
    (and BTW all the hate comments have been saved for a future post, so keep those two fingers typing!)

  5. maggie Says:

    “PIV is natural (like rattlesnake venom and hurricanes). Rape (not consensual PIV, but rape) is the natural mode of reproduction for half of the life on the planet. Ducks are engaged in an evolutionary arms race to see which sex can convolute its genitals more, to either facilitate or prevent rape.

    The evolutionary psychologists are right IMO (and aren’t trying to excuse anything, largely – laymen are doing that). It’s nature that’s wrong. And I don’t mean that sarcastically. As animals, I think patriarchy is in our genes.”

    PIV isn’t natural and I’ll explain why. PIV requires the submission of women and this is done via gender conditioning, from the minute a child born. From the very nature of the act, a woman must submit to be penetrated. PIV brings to most wbw during their fertile years dangers, the main danger being pregnancy. Pregnancy harms wbw, it will affect their bank balance, organ damage, mental health.

    Patriarchy isn’t genetic. As animals we’re at the top of the chain, by a huge gap. Patriarchy is a social system; capitalism is an economic and social system and this isn’t genetic either. Why, because there are other social and economic models that work. Just as there are other social systems such as matriarchy, which also work.

    Evo psychs talk rubbish; there is no such thing as male/female brain; all evo psych does is continue the gender binary. Can I suggest that you read Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender?

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      Great comment Maggie.

      PIV isn’t natural and I’ll explain why. PIV requires the submission of women and this is done via gender conditioning, from the minute a child born. From the very nature of the act, a woman must submit to be penetrated. PIV brings to most wbw during their fertile years dangers, the main danger being pregnancy. Pregnancy harms wbw, it will affect their bank balance, organ damage, mental health.

      Yes indeed. Even back in the 2nd wave there was some PIV criticism, largely forgotten until more recently, and PIV criticism is getting even more refined.

      There is certainly far more ‘compulsory heterosexuality’ grooming directed towards girls than there is boys. It starts even as we are toddlers, and given dollies to play with. I see today that this type of grooming is even stronger than it was when I was a kid in the 60s.

      When females get older, they are not only instructed to seek out het relationships, but also to submit to those relationships, specifically PIV above all. All the propaganda in newspapers and magazines as to what constitutes a ‘healthy sex life’ ALWAYS includes PIV in those activities. For the vast majority of women, PIV is not enjoyable, does not lead to orgasms. Yet it is billed as ‘the main event of sex’. I remember back from my het days, it was always stressful, the fear of pregnancy. It was always there, in the back of my mind. There was never a ‘just relax and enjoy it’ time. Because if ‘we’ got pregnant, there was only one half of that ‘we’ that would really bear the brunt of dealing with the consequences. And it was not the one with the penis.

      • yttik Says:

        I don’t believe PIV is “natural”, either. We are trained from a very young age to believe it is the main event, the only valid form of sex, absolutely vital to men and their health, etc, etc. We currently live in a rape culture that promotes PIV 24/7 and forces women to be in a constant state of self defense against pregnancy and rape, but if you remove those modern cultural norms and go back to an ancient times, it’s quite possible that was not “natural” back then. Women in ancient times did not have very many children, for many reasons, but one could certainly be the fact that PIV was not promoted 24/7 as the end all of everything.

      • Soran Says:

        There is certainly far more ‘compulsory heterosexuality’ grooming directed towards girls than there is boys. It starts even as we are toddlers, and given dollies to play with. I see today that this type of grooming is even stronger than it was when I was a kid in the 60s.

        Young female apes have been seen with sticks that they hold onto, with which they mimic actions such as feeding and nursing.

        And if ‘compulsory heterosexuality’ is artificial (how did natural selection NOT put a breeding impulse in something as complex as the brain?), why is homosexuality so rare among animals?

        How do we forget that human beings are animals? Nature doesn’t always do right by us. For the millionth time, evolution doesn’t excuse anything. But it is the cause of the problem, and we do need to combat rapist biology directly. A guy who cuts his balls off has done that, no matter what other misogyny he’s into.

      • DaveSquirrel Says:

        Soren, your evo-psych stuff is getting boring. For every example in nature there is the opposite case.

        I actually know that heterosexual grooming is cultural and forced upon girls. Otherwise I would have gone straight to lesbianism. But I got sucked in by the het grooming. So many lesbians do.

    • Caerolle Says:

      I am just curious, not looking for leverage in an argument. I just always wonder, if you think PIV is unnatural, how would humans, including women, still exist? And how would you suggest getting new humans? In vitro fertilization?

      • Branjor Says:

        PIV is not necessary for reproduction. Just a little bit of sperm placed on the surface of the vulva can cause pregnanacy, as the motile sperm cells are perfectly capable of making their own way into and up the vagina, throught the uterus and all the way to the fallopian tubes where fertilization takes places.

      • Caerolle Says:

        @Branjor:

        ( there was no Reply link to your post, sorry)

        Thanks, makes sense. 🙂

      • Soran Says:

        @Branjor:

        PIV is not necessary for reproduction. Just a little bit of sperm placed on the surface of the vulva can cause pregnanacy, as the motile sperm cells are perfectly capable of making their own way into and up the vagina, throught the uterus and all the way to the fallopian tubes where fertilization takes places..

        Caerolle’s question seems to refer to existing humans, not future alternatives.

        We can use your suggestion now that we’re aware of it, but the existing anatomy has rarely been used that way. Also, it wouldn’t solve anything. PIV is harmful (for most women) because of pregnancy and disease. Your suggestion carries both. 10% of the population having PIV would be better than 100% of the population doing this.

        The anatomy is adapted for PIV because PIV is the simplest (and quickest) method for making more people, not because it’s good for the individuals. The human brain is also biased towards heterosexuality and PIV (unless some feminist deity actively chose to exempt the brain from natural selection), and this is the case in nearly all animals.

        That’s what it boils down to. Our bodies are adapted towards no other task except making more of ourselves. Nature is not capable of considering the suffering of the individuals who do the breeding, because nature does not have a mind or conscience capable of recognizing us as persons.

        If you think that nature would not let us evolve into something self-destructive where the individual was sacrificed for the species, ask yourself why. Ask yourself what would stop it. Most people think a deity would prevent it. Most people don’t believe that evolution exists. Most people don’t think that anything natural can be bad. And most of the people I’m describing are far-right patriarchal sheep who breed like rabbits and think as one. This is not an accident.

        It is by lucky accident that we also happened to develop enough intelligence to start objecting to this state of affairs. Now we have the opportunity to escape evolution altogether and turn ourselves into something better than human beings.

        We are UNintelligently designed to overrun the planet and kill everything else. That is the driving force behind every scrap of DNA in every single man, woman, and child on the planet, and the reason that patriarchy focuses on forced breeding.

        Let me say that again: patriarchy is all about forced breeding. In every possible situation – wartime, peacetime, and nearly every culture that ever existed, men rape and women submit and hardly anyone questions it. Heredity is everything in law, in governance, in finance and in social structure, and most cultures reject people who do not breed. It’s okay to fuck dancing boys in Afghanistan, as long as a man has wives. This is not just culture. Patriarchy and capitalism are flaws in our basic design, and the design itself must be corrected. Now does a 10% male birthrate sound a little better?

        Any body modification, sexual or social practice that prevents reproduction can be turned to the advantage of reversing the influence of natural selection on our species. Evolution has taken us as far as it can, and if we do not take control of our biological makeup we will either go extinct or evolve into something less than we are now.

      • Branjor Says:

        It’s not a suggestion, it’s a fact, and it is already known as I learned it long ago reading sex/birth control educational literature. Goddess, only a man who thinks the universe revolves around piv would have imagined it was only something I thought up myself. It has obviously happened many times or else it wouldn’t be known.
        The female vagina is anything but adapted to piv, it’s purpose is as a birth canal. At other times the walls of the vagina are collapsed inward on each other and the vaginal opening becomes smaller as sexual arousal takes place. The penis has to be a pain causing battering ram to get “in” there during piv, not exactly conducive to getting women to engage in the “act” and making more kids (according to you, our only biological purpose). And, as I have pointed out, it is not even necessary to reproduction. You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar.

    • Soran Says:

      “PIV requires the submission of women and this is done via gender conditioning, from the minute a child born. From the very nature of the act, a woman must submit to be penetrated. PIV brings to most wbw during their fertile years dangers, the main danger being pregnancy. Pregnancy harms wbw, it will affect their bank balance, organ damage, mental health.”

      Yes. Then I point to Warren Jeffs (who is pure evil and has no right to exist) as an example of the perfect natural-selection machine.

      The fact that something is evil and harmful does not mean that it is unnatural, unless you trust the same mindless physics that create tsunami. If someone falls off a building and dies, that doesn’t mean gravity is unnatural. Nature does not have a conscience, and we can’t trust it. It made the perpetuation of the species contingent on a harmful and violent act, and it is only technology that gave us an alternative to this.

      I’m not saying that PIV is beneficial. I’m saying it exists, it predates humanity, and nobody invented it. Therefore we need something that IS a human (and humane) invention if we want to make more people, and if we do that then we can decide how many of those people will be males in the first place.

    • Soran Says:

      Patriarchy isn’t genetic. As animals we’re at the top of the chain, by a huge gap. Patriarchy is a social system; capitalism is an economic and social system and this isn’t genetic either.

      Patriarchy and capitalism are both manifestations of natural selection, the single driving force behind all of life on the planet. They exist in multiple species (yes, capitalism too).

      Natural selection does not have a conscience. This is why patriarchy and capitalism do not have conscience.

      We are a dangerous species because we have gotten too good at what animals do, and we haven’t yet used conscience to overcome natural selection.

      Other animals can’t look at the big picture and see if they’re outgrowing their niche. We have only recently gained the ability to even think about the big picture (much less actually see any part of it).

      I think that to an extent, our culture can be remade to undo patriarchy and capitalism. But patriarchy is millions of years old, older than our species, and radical feminists have not completely solved the entire problem using nothing but ideas in the space of less than fifty years. It’s a bigger problem than that.

      Human biology will have to be re-designed. If we can’t breed or engineer patriarchy out of our biology (to the extent that it is present there), then the only other ways for it to end are for us to go extinct or for sentient machines to replace us (which would be a miracle). Personally I hope that a bionic, genetically-engineered future awaits us no matter what, but I think we’ll kill ourselves first. Either way, it’s the human species that is obsolete, not just our cultures.

      • Feuerwerferin Says:

        Soran is right about nature using cruelty to ensure reproduction. There is a species of flies which eat their mother form the inside until she dies. That is the way these insects bread. A similar thing is true for PIV. We suffer physically and psychologically from it. This is reason enough it should have been abolished when humanity started. The reason why it was not abolished is patriarchy whether it is in men’s genes or not. [if you believe in matriarchies then maybe PIV did not take place for some era and has been (re)introduced later] VIOCLENCE is what separates the sexes, it is not intelligence. And male violence is either everywhere or almost everywhere.

  6. FeistyAmazon Says:

    This is a repost from the other ‘eunuch/asexual thread’ to the trans who wanted an alliance between our two halves. While that particular trans came on fairly respectfully, still, some of the stuff was very hard to digest especially the primal ape/sexual violence stuff and need to have his penis removed. Go be a 3rd or 4th gender but LEAVE US ALONE! Don’t coopt us. Then we can talk, maybe, and ONLY if we want to. Let the ball be in OUR court, NOT YOURS, and don’t whine if we don’t cater to you or give you attention. THAT is male behavior, no matter the feminine dress up shell you are cosmetically in and have paid for.
    Like one woman said in that post/thread, it’s up to us to decide, not you, because for so long ALL bio males of every sort have determined what women may or may not do, much less how Lesbians can express ourselves, or not. Here’s my post from that other thread to that trans and supportive of the other WBW:

    “It’s all so scary as we get written out of history, and denied OUR right to OUR herstory once again, being told it’s so much nonsense and ‘being a woman’ is in your head, and yet women can have flesh cocks too, and men can be penisless and have vaginas and be Thomas Beatties or Matt Rices and have babies.

    What a ‘Brave New World’ we’re living in, where ‘gender’ matters and biological sex does not. No, our sex we’re born should NOT hold us back. But, we ARE different in many unique ways, and especially amongst our own…where we get to hear each other’s voices and truths…and yet…anytime we gather, we are impinged on by the male born who will never truly understand us.

    I do believe in 3rd or 4th genders, there are those who are naturally inbetween, or even created inbetweeners, maybe intersex, maybe genderfluid, maybe just confused and can’t make up their minds…and if that’s what you feel you are, that’s the space you should create. NOT usurp female attention or female space. Redefine yourself anyway you want, dress any way you want, but have respect. Just like I do not agree with all this FTMing going on in my Dyke communities, and it greatly, greatly saddens me to see YET ANOTHER Butch transition, I can respect an FTM who decides NOT to go into female only space, or attempt to coopt it, because now they’ve decided to identify as male, hopped up on male hormones, and identifying with bio males in their heads. I feel the same in MTF’s and others respecting OUR needs as Dykes, as women to have OUR spaces too for just wbw, and to discuss OUR needs and issues and joys and sacred connections.

    Yes, there’s always been those who haven’t ‘fit in’ either way, perhaps it’s an excess of hormones before birth either way, who have blended, and I’m all for that kind of genderfluidity if that’s what works for you….as long as I have respect for myself as a Butch Dyke FEMALE, and want my Amazonian spaces and places and connections with other Dykes and bio-females respected.

    To have respect, one must give it…and that flows both ways. Good luck on your travels.”
    -FeistyAmazon

  7. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Bottom line what I’m for, is the ENDING OF ALL THESE MUTILATING SURGERIES and need for artificial hormones to be comfortable in one’s own skin. STOP the discrimination and violence and censure against strong powerful women, against Dykes, against Butches, against highly effeminate gay men and boys, and the demonization of homosexuality and lesbianism and MAYBE we won’t have need of these surgeries, or at least way less performed. And stop the cultism of the trans movement which is ultimately body denying and self-hating,almost a Western version of genital mutilation… no matter how you slice it. (Pun intended).

    • Soran Says:

      I should come right out and say that I can’t support any policy that would take away a person’s choices in the matter any more than I can support dictating how other people respond to that person’s choices. I understand that many people don’t consider this a choice, even when a person is surrounded by a culture that tells them not to transition (mainstream culture, that is).

      But if free will does not exist to any extent, then there is no such thing as a person in the first place. We’re all programmed robots whose decisions and lives are meaningless, and ethics are simply us rationalizing decisions we aren’t making.

      I do deny the body. I deny fragile bones. I deny Down syndrome. I deny cancer, the instructions for which are written into every cell in my body. I deny uncontrolled forcible reproduction, which is what every species on the planet would do without predators to stop them (and is exactly what we are doing).

      What difference (aside from moral obligation to do otherwise) is there between war rape and any other form of evolutionary domination among other species? There are *plants* that hunt and kill animals for food.

      Nature may have caused our existence, but it also fucked us all over (people, cats, dogs, everyone). It put us in the middle of an empty universe, on a single planet, 70% covered with water that we can’t drink. It gives us radioactive stones that power our homes and poison us at the same time.

      When I say ‘natural,’ I mean ‘that which exists.’ Lots of fucked up things are natural. Like PIV. Humanity is the difference between our nature (which has no conscience) and our actions (which can).

  8. FCM Says:

    yes all this “patriarchy is natural” business is very bothersome indeed. very male-minded and self-serving (to men). and…its one hell of a mansplanation isnt it? thats obvious of course.

    at least he seems to recognize that removing his dick removes a particular threat to women. thats more than most self-identified feminist men are willing to do: none of them will “name the agent” when it comes to womens suffering, or admit that the sexualized violence we suffer at the hands of men has particular significance to us, because we are female-bodied.

    • Soran Says:

      The statement that ‘patriarchy is natural’ only serves men if you let them pretend that they are solely animals. Of course, they can follow their nature, but if they do then they have no right to exist. I provided Warren Jeffs as an example because he is devoted to his nature and it has turned him into a monster.

      I point out that patriarchy is natural because that’s the only way to see how massive a problem it is – it was around before humans were.

  9. pmsrhino Says:

    Yeah, all credibility was lost when it got to the evo-psych bullshit. Ducks are in an arms race to improve their genitalia? I thought that evolution was an unconscious process, so why are you talking about these ducks like they’re CHOOSING to alter their genitalia? The male ducks aren’t CHOOSING to have better rape penises nor are the female ducks CHOOSING to have better rape-proof vaginas. If that is what’s happening it’s a process of nature selection and just who happens to reproduce better, not choice. Seriously, if actual evo psych people are saying this kind of stuff (I wouldn’t know, I stay as far away from evo psych crap as I possibly can if only to spare my computer monitor from my rage) then I think they have kind of forgotten some of the basics of evolution. And ANY philosophy that would seriously consider Warren Jeffs as “perfect” is not any sort of philosophy I want to be anywhere near or have even seriously considered by the greater population (which, unfortunately, evo pysch is because it is a load of patriarchy enforcing bullshit).

    I also find it incredibly difficult to say that anything humans do is “natural.” So much of our behavior is dictated by culture and society and the way we are raised. It is very much nurture over nature when I look at society and the way humans act. How can we say rape is natural? Just because men have been doing it for centuries? How do we know it’s not cultural since women have also been devalued and treated as property for centuries?

    Even if it is natural, we humans have a great capacity to think about consequences and abstract thoughts about the future and whatnot, so why do we think it is totally okay for men to act on their “nature” like this? Shouldn’t we, as a “superior” species be able to see the consequences of actions such as rape and then work to fix the situation for the betterment of our species and society? Or, as it would seem, since it is cultural and men gain GREATLY from the rape culture then is it that the men do understand the consequences of rape on women and society and thus actively and consciously work to keep women in their less-than status?

    I have read books on third genders in other cultures, and I think having a 3rd (or however many genders) is all well and good. Honestly, though, I think it would behoove us to instead focus on getting rid of ALL gender boxes and just let us all live as people. I don’t think creating a 3rd gender would do this, all it would do is create yet another box for people to fit in. So no, I don’t think trans and radfems can really coexist together. Trans, even the saner ones, still want to create boxes to shove everyone into and I’ve always felt rad feminism wants to break open those boxes so that women can finally be themselves without the weight of femininity in the patriarchy holding us down. The comment was interesting to read and I it’s really nice to hear from a trans person who disagrees with the greater trans cult community, but in the end I don’t think it can mesh with radfem ideas. I want the gender boxes gone, not more of them.

    • Soran Says:

      “Yeah, all credibility was lost when it got to the evo-psych bullshit. Ducks are in an arms race to improve their genitalia? I thought that evolution was an unconscious process, so why are you talking about these ducks like they’re CHOOSING to alter their genitalia? The male ducks aren’t CHOOSING to have better rape penises nor are the female ducks CHOOSING to have better rape-proof vaginas. If that is what’s happening it’s a process of nature selection and just who happens to reproduce better, not choice.”

      By ‘arms race’ I didn’t mean to imply choice. This happens when I debate creationists – natural selection is hard to describe in terms that don’t imply conscious direction. Deliberate changes chosen by the ducks would be Lamarckian evolution, which was debunked a century ago. It’s the same theory that said giraffes were making their own necks longer by eating tall plants. Obviously not.

      Yes, the situation with the ducks is natural selection. I was using it as an example of ‘accidental design’ without conscience or intellect involved. The *absence* of conscious choice was the main point of the duck example. Sorry I wasn’t more clear.

      “Seriously, if actual evo psych people are saying this kind of stuff (I wouldn’t know, I stay as far away from evo psych crap as I possibly can if only to spare my computer monitor from my rage) then I think they have kind of forgotten some of the basics of evolution. And ANY philosophy that would seriously consider Warren Jeffs as “perfect” is not any sort of philosophy I want to be anywhere near or have even seriously considered by the greater population (which, unfortunately, evo pysch is because it is a load of patriarchy enforcing bullshit).”

      Even if everything the evo-psychs say is factually correct, it does not justify any human action in any area. Science and ethics are two separate subjects.

      I used Warren Jeffs as an example *because* he’s evil. He is ‘nature’ unchecked by conscience. Like a hurricane. Nature has *no* philosophy. Evolutionary psychology can only ‘justify’ patriarchy if one assumes that everything nature does is good and just, and that people are not sentient.

      It’s an issue I’ve run into in debating people who believe in the Law of Attraction (or ‘The Secret’), that self-help nonsense that claims to be based on quantum mechanics. They think that the universe is trying to tell them something. If a rapist thinks evolution can justify his actions, he is doing the same thing as a caveman who thinks the clouds are telling him what crops to plant. He will read the clouds to serve his purposes.

      Science by itself cannot answer ethical or philosophical questions. Even if everything the evo-psychs say is absolutely true, it does NOT justify anything. If people use evolutionary psychology to justify people’s actions, they are pretending that the universe has a mind (similar to their own). No, it doesn’t.

      “I also find it incredibly difficult to say that anything humans do is “natural.” So much of our behavior is dictated by culture and society and the way we are raised. It is very much nurture over nature when I look at society and the way humans act. How can we say rape is natural? Just because men have been doing it for centuries? How do we know it’s not cultural since women have also been devalued and treated as property for centuries?”

      Rape (along with many human behaviors such as dance, language, toolmaking and altering one’s appearance) predates humanity. That is the magnitude of the threat it poses.

      “Even if it is natural, we humans have a great capacity to think about consequences and abstract thoughts about the future and whatnot, so why do we think it is totally okay for men to act on their “nature” like this? Shouldn’t we, as a “superior” species be able to see the consequences of actions such as rape and then work to fix the situation for the betterment of our species and society?”

      Yes. It is natural and (MORE IMPORTANTLY) we do have a great capacity to think about the consequences. That is what makes us people rather than machines. We are programmed for bad and we can choose to do good. That ability to choose is the foundation of all ethics and human rights.

      • Feuerwerferin Says:

        Nature really is horrible and immoral and everything. But.

        Either humans have left the state of instincts (and nature) completely (or partially) or they haven’t. If we have, then PIV (and patriarchy) is not natural (anymore). This is the feminist point of view. So everything humans (men and women, intersex) do can be questioned and altered. The fact that patriarchy persists is a cultural problem from this point of view, obviously. Rape amoung animals is none of our business.

        You on the other hand think that we humans haven’t left the state of instincts partially. (If we hadn’t outgrown any of if at all, then ethics wouldn’t exist at all – being completely natural is not the case with humans). This is why you want that humans quit the remaining natural traits by using science.

        With this difference in premises, there is no wonder that there is no aggreement. There doesn’t seem to be an inbetween. Although both sides agree on PIV (and patriarchy) being (no longer) natural for humans which it really isn’t.

        I am not accusing you of anything. I can understand both points of view. And if you were (are?) right, then the proportion of males would haven to be (must be) reduced. At the moment, I am not sure whose premises are right.

    • Cathy Brennan Says:

      Gender boxes gone = the goal. Right on.

  10. DaveSquirrel Says:

    Soran’s comment is certainly a marathon.

    There are other people who reject traditional gender roles but not their genitals, but I’m not talking about them.

    Those ‘other’ people are radical feminists. We reject the gender roles, but not our genitals. We are what we are, but we have been born into a two-tiered system whereby humans with our biological configuration are regarded as a sub-class, and exploited.

    I think I could be very grateful for a third-sex role. I think I could find more peace there than as an American-style Transwoman®.

    I don’t think that radfems would have any objection to a third-sex category (not role, category!!). The problem becomes, under the current system of assigning M2Ts into the category ‘female’ when obviously, they are not female. There are actual implications, specifically medical ones, in invisibilising tranz status, eg heart attack symptoms or even just prostate exams. Sometimes I think tranz will die out due to their own stupidity, in maintaining the delusion that they are exactly the same as biological females. As biological females, we do have different physiology, beyond reproductive organs.

    I think trans women reject the third-sex role for what they perceive as female ‘privilege’ (passing on patriarchal terms) and a larger community to be part of.

    There is no female privilege. It is a lie. Most of the so-called privileges are either a great source of annoyance or distress, or a fiction. Such as getting hit-on all the time – really fucking annoying, if not potentially dangerous. There is a certain degree of benefit in adhering to sterotyped gender roles and appearance, but that is not the same. Any female, who does not abide by the twanz BS, who rejects ‘gender’ conformity gets policed into conforming (either by violence, or job discrimination). So there is no ‘female privilege’ only ‘gender role conformity’ benefits (not exactly the same as a privilege – all conformity for females takes a lot of time and money, even though we are paid less).

    I’ll still use the term transwomen, because that’s the closest Western description I have for men who ‘should have been born female.’ By this I do not mean that I *am* female.

    There is no ‘being born into the wrong body’. The body you are born into is a fact, nothing more. I am not ‘born into the wrong body’ if I really believe that I should have been born a squirrel, it is silly (which is why I chose the ID of DaveSquirrel, twanzsquirrel). Non-sexual/non-fetish tranz has two other causes – straight out body dysmorphia (like the people who seriously believe that a healthy limb should not be there, an obvious mental disorder) or, a deepdown rejection of gender roles, the rejection of either masculinity or feminity (gender roles). On the latter point, we have common ground in theory (but not in execution). Radical feminists do not believe in unnecessary surgery, particularly most/all forms of cosmetic surgery in order to conform to ‘normal’ (eg exceptions would be things like cleft palate, but that has functional implications as well). Most radfems see SRS as unnecessary cosmetic surgery (the exception there is probably intersex, where if the intersex person wishes surgery or not, but again, that is more inline with birth ‘defects’ or anomalies).

    So, even this ‘third sex’ option, or any form of SRS, or even just rejecting gender role expectations and presentations, will make any difference to ‘the system’ (patriarchy) whilst the majority of the population police it or participate in it. Bottom line is that gender role presentations and expections have to go. Awareness raising within the general population.

    I think the other bottom line for most radfems is that SRS should be discontinued, and treatment should be non-surgical forms. In the case of body dysmorphics, the same therapy as the rest of the body dysmorphics. In the case of rejection of masculinity/feminity, most of the time, just actually coming to the self realisation of this being the cause should be enough (just read radical feminist analysis, it’s all there).

    As for the sexual fetishists (autogynephiliacs etc), those freaks can just go and find a little den somewhere and masturbate to each other. Don’t care. I just don’t want to see it, or have it infringe on my life or the life of females in any way. Nor do I want these sexual perverts in any FAB-only space. Don’t even care how ‘pretty’ they look (reference to Gregory Gorgeous). The tranzjacktivists seem mainly to be from this latter category, the sexual fetishists.

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      whoopsies, grammar typo in third-last paragraph:

      will make any difference

      should read “will NOT make any difference”.

      ok, I only skim proofed it. Shoot me. There are probably other errors in there too!

    • Soran Says:

      “There is no female privilege. It is a lie. Most of the so-called privileges are either a great source of annoyance or distress, or a fiction. Such as getting hit-on all the time – really fucking annoying, if not potentially dangerous. There is a certain degree of benefit in adhering to sterotyped gender roles and appearance, but that is not the same. Any female, who does not abide by the twanz BS, who rejects ‘gender’ conformity gets policed into conforming (either by violence, or job discrimination). So there is no ‘female privilege’ only ‘gender role conformity’ benefits (not exactly the same as a privilege – all conformity for females takes a lot of time and money, even though we are paid less).”

      Yes. This is why I said they *perceive* it as ‘privilege’ (in quotes). It’s not. I look at a stereotypically beautiful woman on a billboard and superficially she looks like someone to emulate. She looks happy, wealthy, healthy, etc. Then I imagine walking down the street at night in that body, and the shine wears off.

  11. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Okay, last thing I want to say around this for now: IF there were to be any ‘alliance’, or at least less enmity, then GIVE US MICHFEST FREE AND CLEAR. TELL ALL YOUR TRANSSISTERS AND TRANSBROTHERS TO STOP CRASHING MICHFEST, stop destroying Michfest property, stop trying to sneak in or get in for free, or come in at all, stop threatening the womyn with violence. GIVE US the respect we ask, follow the Policy and Intention that Michfest is WBW space and DO NOT CRASH IT! Dismantle Camp Trans and turn your attention to real issues like jobs, housing, survival ect. And STOP fighting with us and putting Michfest down and those who attend it.Recognize that WE need this space for our own mysteries and our own healing and survival. There are other spaces for you, as well as your own trans conferences and support groups. Stop coopting the Lesbian community for your purposes, and making it about YOUR issues. THEN AND ONLY THEN, can MAYBE some positive dialogue be started.
    -FeistyAmazon

    • Soran Says:

      I don’t truck with more than a handful of trans people myself, but my thoughts on this were addressed in the fourth-to-last paragraph (of course, I don’t expect that everyone had time to read the whole thing):

      “Staying away from Michfest, etc. is easy. I don’t understand what it is that trans women think they can ‘soak up’ there. Yes, my psychology is bereft of female socialization and estrogen. It’s also missing memories of moonlit summers on the French Riviera, and a Ph.D in computer science.

      But what a trans woman gets by barging into a WBW space is not female socialization. It’s women responding to what they see as a man. If someone’s going to play safari and ‘study’ WBW in their ‘natural habitat,’ they could at least realize that pushing themselves into the situation changes the dynamic.”

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      Well said Feisty.
      Until they stop trying to crash female spaces by force, there can be little dialogue. And I mean all spaces, even restrooms, with the most dubious of policies that allow any old perv into the ladies toilets.

  12. KatieS Says:

    Patriarchy/misogyny (PM, for short here) is the problem. It is a problem for everyone, of course, since it is destroying life on earth. But the ones who receive the brunt of it are women, and lesbians are the group of women that receive it the most.

    For males, there are those who are actively destroying, and those who are passively supporting those efforts by not challenging the destroyers. These are the “reasonable males.” A key reason for this is that they, too, appear to benefit to some extent by PM, due to unearned privilege. Also, they are frightened by the active destroyers and afraid of them, one of the hallmarks of PM. They’d rather let women and lesbians take the brunt of it, let the violence be diverted from them.

    The trans community follows this same pattern. There are some more reasonable males or M2T’s in this community and some very disturbed/destroying males M2Ts in this community. But most of those who are reasonable just keep a low profile, not challenging the status quo, so as not to attract attention of the active destroyers. The active destroyers are then free to go after women, especially lesbians, just like they always have. This puts women, especially lesbians, more at risk than even before.

    An alliance between transgenderism and radical feminism is not the key issue here. What needs to happen is that PM in the transgender community needs to be stopped. It is not up to radical feminists to stop it. It is up to those who are not active destroyers to challenge those who are. They put themselves at risk, of course, and lose unearned privilege by so doing. But by not doing it, they give free reign to these bullies. The planet is being destroyed by patriarchy from the most privileged on down. But if none of the males down the line stood for it, it would fall. I put the onus on males including M2T’s in the transgender community.

    Any transgenderist is free to adopt a radical feminist philosophy, to stand for that, of course. But radical feminists would not adopt a transgenderist philosophy, so that would not be an alliance.

    I’m serious about this. If there is to be a liveable planet of any sort, I think women, especially lesbians, are the group most likely to make that happen. Women-only spaces are an essential element for that. Women need women-only space, so males need to respect that, and challenge male who does not. It really is in the best interest of all MABs to stop the patriarchy/misogyny. I’m not holding my breath, but that’s my take on it.

  13. SheilaG Says:

    Radical feminism and transgenderism have no relationship to each other. Trans just reinforces gender stereotypes… it is not feminist, it does not further the progress or freedom of born women anywhere.

    Why would we waste time on these men who show nothing but contempt for our rituals, music festivals, and sacred land? And I don’t see any major trans activists calling out those men who snuck into Michigan this year or in years past. No comments at all about how violated this feels to radical feminists.

    When men do this, and then expect us to trust or believe they are women, you have got to be kidding me.

    Radical feminist philosophy is a hated minority within a minority viewpoint. There is a constant attempt to silence us, erase our scholarship, take us out of context, destroy our professorships with “gender pomo studies”… I could go on and on.

    Men don’t get what radical feminism is, it is an uncompromsing freedom movement for wimmin. We want the male boots off our necks, and we want to be left alone to talk to other sisters, to forment rebellion and resistence to male tyranny. I don’t see any MtTrans on board with this.

    And we’ll see how they react to this open thread, because I don’t believe they are capable of getting this, and they waste our valuable woman loving time even talking this much.

    What’s in it for us? That they would “agree” to leave our land alone? That they would “agree” not to erase Dworkin, Daly and others from women’s studies reading lists? That they’d stop taking women
    ‘s studies jobs away from born wimmin? Just what would we gain from having yet another boring conversation with those born of penis privilege?

    Who holds them accountable?

    And besides, almost all my time and energy is devoted to trying to reach other women, to spread the word of liberation. Because not all women on earth have heard of feminism or even get a good explanation of what it truly is. They are still destroying our books and our culture, because we don’t stand for male invasion, male threats or males appropriating the “fake” manufactured bodies they call female. There really is nothing in common at all, except their commonality with all male domination and its usual tactics.

  14. Branjor Says:

    Fascinating discussions going on here lately. I have to say, he lost me too with the “piv, rape and patriarchy are natural” shit. They may (or may not) be “natural” to men, but they sure as hell aren’t natural to women. Which only goes to show that men and women are not complementary or compatible with each other.

    • Soran Says:

      I said it was natural in the same way that rattlesnake venom and hurricanes are natural. Natural does not mean good. I made this point because men did not invent PIV.

      And now some men are rejecting it.

      • Branjor Says:

        I know exactly what you said. I never said natural=good. Rattlesnake venom and hurricanes *are* natural. piv, rape and patriarchy are not.

  15. Mary Sunshine Says:

    Radical feminism and transgenderism have no shared goals. Not a single one.

    Hence, nothing about which to form an alliance.

    • Soran Says:

      I didn’t propose an alliance between radical feminism and transgenderism. I proposed radical feminism as the starting point for an alternative to transgenderism, for those who would otherwise fall into it.

      A huge part of my point in the original post was that people who have these issues do NOT have to buy into Western transgender culture. The culture is incompatible with radical feminism, but the people can reject the culture. Radical feminism is the only philosophy (besides religion) that tells someone like me that I don’t have to be a stereotypical man OR turn myself into a Barbie doll.

      Women have no place in patriarchy. A man whose psychology rejects testosterone also has no place in patriarchy, but he THINKS he does – perhaps as a fabricated woman.

      Radical feminism is saving me from that, but what’s going on with me is still something more than hating football. That’s not your problem, but people like me will keep being born. They can dive headfirst into the drag shows, or they can do something else. Whatever else they do, it will harm women unless women’s voices are part of it.

  16. nuclearnight Says:

    Well that was quite interesting to read.

    People being born with the feeling that they have the wrong body sounds a lot like a type of mental illness. Those have been around since the dawn of human kind as well.

    When PIV (heterosexuality) is called “natural” my eyes tend to glaze over. PIV, even in the rest of the animal kingdom, is generally only practiced for procreation (hence the term “mating season”).

    Human females have the added bonus of having extremely warped pelvises from when our ancestors began walking upright. Unlike most other female animals this means without the “benefit” of modern technology most of us die when we give birth/from complications of giving birth. So its not really the same thing at all. Not that animals in the wild are PIVing it up 24/7 either. Whole lotta lesbians out there in the wild, possibly mating with teh malez in the springtime and returning to their lovers to nest with their little fur babies. Its really sweet actually.

    Too bad for us humans its not so easy.

  17. radfemcrafts Says:

    Not sure if you’ve seen this yet, but they’re out for you, GM (and missing the part where you don’t out anyone who didn’t out themselves already). labelle77.livejournal.com/334001.html

    • GallusMag Says:

      Total McCarthyism. Look where Autumn Sandeen says he reported my blog for crimes against humanity because I reported on the males who have widely published about their experiences trespassing and/or harassing the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival. The male transgenders featured in my post have posted widely and proudly about their actions! They are proud of it! No one’s privacy has been invaded in any way. He just doesn’t think females have a right to discuss it, at all. Women must be silenced by any means necessary!

      Oh, and speaking of invading privacy, didn’t Sandeen “out” a transwoman that disagreed with him to their employer and request that they be fired for posting a comment Autumn disagreed with?
      http://justjenniferblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/sandeen-goes-cyberstalking.html

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      Yeah. The ‘charge’ of outing was a complete work of fiction. As GM says, these dudes are proudly blabbing over every corner of the internet as to how ‘clever’ they are for sneaking in and breaking policy.

      Exactly like other dudes with rapist mentalities actually. Cut from the same cloth.


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  19. Bev Jo Says:

    PIV can’t be very natural if studies have been done showing that primates who have never seen it never do it.

    I can’t believe it is something any female would ever choose if there wasn’t such intense pressure, with rewards and severe punishment.

    I’ve never experienced it, in spite of being told my entire life that I should. I haven’t eaten dog shit either. From what I’ve been told, it hurts. Girls and women bleed from it. It is the epitome of patriarchy and males are obsessed with it. It’s the ultimate humiliation and so is used to terrorize females around the world. Why would any female in her right mind agree to such a horrible and disgusting thing?

    I cannot believe that a “radical Lesbian feminist” actually said:

    “Yes, there’s always been those who haven’t ‘fit in’ either way, perhaps it’s an excess of hormones before birth either way, who have blended, and I’m all for that kind of genderfluidity if that’s what works for you…”

    That is exactly the mindfuck lie that the genderqueers, medical system, and trans are perpetrating on us. PLEASE, do not get conned by the hormone theory. If that was real, then why do MTFs look and act nothing like what real females look and act like? And why are most FTMs Fem? There is NO truth about MTFs being somehow more truly female because they are obviously so far from it. It is all about fetishizing, objectifying, caricaturizing real females.

    And no, except for a very small minority of truly intersex people, there are no “3rd or 4th genders” and no, you cannot say “if that’s what you feel you are, that’s the space you should create. NOT usurp female attention or female space. Redefine yourself anyway you want, dress any way you want, but have respect” because that is a complete contradiction. It is NOT respectful to appropriate the caricatured male version of female that men created to humiliate, demean, and subjugate us. Understanding this is basic, simple feminism — not even radical.

    No man who is claiming our identity is respectful or an ally.

    What is with Soran continuing his female-hating propaganda of patriarchy being “around before humans were?” Don’t you just love how men think they are god, and inform us of what always has been and what always will be? I remember in the Seventies, after the exciting rapid growth of international feminism, there suddenly was a book by a man called “The Inevitability of Patriarchy” in all the local libraries, although the libraries had very few feminist books. Many of us believe that patriarchy has been around far less than matriarchy. And you certainly don’t see patriarchy among animals — there is rape and murder by males, but many female mammals have their own communities while the males are alone. Some animal societies have virtually no males at all.

    I just can’t go on answering this crap from this arrogant man who lectures us about science, when science has gone backwards from what women knew long ago. He speaks with such authority: “… a caveman who thinks the clouds are telling him what crops to plant.” “Cavemen” are a patriarchal myth and they certainly didn’t have agriculture. Pre-agricultural women lived a far more idyllic life than now, while agriculture was what brought patriarchy, wars, genocide, gynocide, slavery, famine, class-divisions, and smaller brain size and worse health.

    You got it, DaveSquirrel. This man’s comment “is certainly a marathon.” And so boring and so inaccurate. He goes on about “radical feminism,” but rather than asking radical feminists what it means, he lectures us with his typical grotesque male narcissism.

    Again, it’s the cult. If they repeat the lie enough, it will be believed. There are no “transwomen.” There are women, and they are men who claim our identity to appropriate and steal from us, and they do us harm by playing that game. If any other man went on and on with all this crap, would this group of radical feminists take the time and effort to answer him?

    But Gallus did answer the question: “Can there ever be an alliance between trans and radical feminism?”

    No.

    • Soran Says:

      Bev Jo, this is not an issue of misunderstanding. You are explicitly lying about my statements and views.

      You’re telling me that PIV is harmful. I already said that myself. Repeatedly. You’re accusing me of promoting a practice that I have been saying is harmful.

      I’ve also stated multiple times that while I have ‘trans’ feelings, I am not acting on them and I do not believe trans women should enter WBW space.

      So you’re not arguing with me. You’re imagining some drag queen on the other side of the screen who wants to go into the restroom with you and thinks PIV is great.

      All you’re doing is attacking this person for existing (even though this person does not exist). Your responses have nothing to do with the posts you’re responding to.

      I am a man who lives as a man, I never intend to set foot in WBW space, and I think that men should feel free to cut their balls off because it prevents PIV.

      My discussions of it are to address the causes of it, not to justify it. You did not miss me saying this unless you didn’t read what I said, in which case it is dishonest to respond at all.

      PIV can’t be very natural if studies have been done showing that primates who have never seen it never do it.

      That something is natural does not mean it is universal to every individual. It also does not mean that an animal placed in an artificial environment cut off from its species has perfect genetic memory that will overcome these alterations.

      From what I’ve been told, it hurts. Girls and women bleed from it. It is the epitome of patriarchy and males are obsessed with it. It’s the ultimate humiliation and so is used to terrorize females around the world. Why would any female in her right mind agree to such a horrible and disgusting thing?

      For the same reason that salmon sacrifice their lives. Hard-wired programming. My entire point is that you underestimate how far-reaching the causes of patriarchy are, and the methods that will have to be undertaken to eradicate it. Ideas alone will not suffice. Human biology is the problem.

      And you certainly don’t see patriarchy among animals — there is rape and murder by males, but many female mammals have their own communities while the males are alone. Some animal societies have virtually no males at all.

      But one way or another, every mammal is the result of a penis going into a vagina. Often by force. Yes? Yes. So it’s a widespread problem.

      I’m pointing this out NOT because it’s a good thing, but because PIV IS A BAD THING and if we don’t pay attention to the causes then we will never eradicate it.

      Let me say this again for people who want to lie about what I’m saying:

      PIV IS A BAD THING. IT IS CAUSED BY FLAWED BIOLOGY. WE CAN ERADICATE PIV IF WE ADMIT THAT OUR BIOLOGY NEEDS TO BE ALTERED.

      A MAN WHO CUTS HIS BALLS OFF CANNOT RAPE. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE HAS TO PRETEND HE’S A WOMAN.

      The upshot of your fantasy attack on all the trannies in your head is that PIV is unnatural, but everyone who is capable of rape should keep the weapon loaded at all times.

      LET POTENTIAL RAPISTS DISARM THEMSELVES. Yes? Or do you NEED to imagine that you’re surrounded by rapists?

  20. GallusMag Says:

    Soran I used your comment as a conversational jumping-off point for a broader discussion. It’s not a post about you. Thank you for your many comments, but some of the comments you responded to as if they were “about you”, when they weren’t, they were general comments related to the topic of whether there can ever be an alliance. I’ll thank you for your input and now ask you to sit back and let others comment for a while. Thanks for all you shared, I appreciate it.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Also, I asked you to avoid using nested comments to avoid this very thing. But you ignored my request, or misunderstood it. Everyone else seemed to have no problem complying with this request.

  21. Soran Says:

    GM: How do I prevent nested comments?

    And I’ll lay off.

  22. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Ok here’s some Matriarchal theories, things I’ve read and studied, and WHY I so strongly believe in Goddess worship(She’s been around 30,000 years, compared to the godchild, whose only been around for about the last 4000 years monotheistically, and probably another 3000 years as the consort/son to the Goddess).

    Catal Huyuk was an ancient culture that knew 1000 years of peace! This is something unfathomable to ANY patriarchal culture which can’t even have 100 years of peace, much less 10 years uninterrupted by warmongering! Also the crime of Rape specifically was considered a ‘crime against the Mother(s)’ and therefore almost unimaginable, truly heinous(as it is) and NOT commonplace. Any man who committed this almost unimaginable act it would have the Furies called down upon him to haunt him the rest of his days, if not put to death for it. Womyn were truly honored and Priestesses and Queens ruled.

    The Amazons came later, as defenders of the Matriarchies, arising out of the rage of womyn for having their gentle peace loving cultures, Priestesses, Dieties, and sacred places murdered, and defiled. We Amazons are also the first to agitate, ritual, gather and call for the reinstatement of them, and defending our spaces and rites with our minds, bodies and spirits. We lead the way. I learned this when I first came out, brought out by strong, powerful Amazonian Dyke Witches!

    There are many spaces and places and cultures where the Goddess was often the only Diety, or the Supreme diety, before the invention of ANY of the patriarchies, but where we lost it is when men figured out their part in pro-creation. An act that was NOT constantly engaged in. Where womyn had their own mysteries, and men had theirs, and where there wasn’t the stigma on homosexuality that there is today, especially by the patriarchal religious cultures, institutions and nations. Where womyn knew how to stop childbirth, or how to control reproduction through the use of herbs or other substances, or lunar rhythms.

    I cite one really good book on our rites and power as “Double Goddesses” by Vicki Noble; “Another Mother Tongue” by Judy Grahn, “Lesbian Origins” by Susan Cavin. These books speak of these cultures and that indeed that patriarchy was NOT inevitable or widely practiced, until the invention of constant warfare and heavy metal blades like iron. There are many others, but indeed when I came out in the heady days of the Goddess spirituality movement when it was fresh and young and the strength of the Lesbian movement, there was NONE of this talk of Butches transitioning, but rather of us CLAIMING FULLY EVERY ASPECT OF OUR WOMONHOOD, BY EVERY KIND OF WOMON! Taking Back the Night, teaching and learning self-defense and how to protect ourselves and one another, escorting each other so none would be victimization, and turning our submissive fear to anger and rage at perpetration! That we could be DANGEROUS, and not to be messed with, like our Gorgon Amazon ancestors who could turn men to stone with a single gaze, or a kiai!

    So NO, patriarchy is NOT inevitable. It has only gained traction by its constant worship of warfare and violence, and instilling fear in the hearts of all womyn. But WE WILL RISE, and turn that fear to Sacred Rage, and stop all of this before it is too late for our Planet, and for womonkind….
    -FeistyAmazon

  23. Cathy Brennan Says:

    The content of this post is a beautiful, fascinating train wreck.

    Gallus, I also love the art you picked for this post. Imagine a business meeting where this topic was discussed!

    Good times.

  24. Lexi Says:

    To say that transgenderism is all about female stereotypes is a lie. What, in your opinion, is the most important thing about being a woman? I don’t expect you to say that it’s being born with a vagina; that’s just degrading because women are much more than just walking vaginas. Women are complex beings who understand the world in ways that men cannot and are the ultimate nurturers, as stated all over this blog. What if somebody born with a penis possesses these traits? A rational person with no other information might say they’re a good, understanding, and sensitive man. A female supremacist might say that’s impossible and he’s putting on an act to manipulate the women around them. Do you know what phantom limb syndrome is? It’s the feeling that an amputated limb is still there, caused by the brain being wired to have these appendages; it’s very unsettling. So, what if that same person with the traits of a woman also has a brain wired like most people born with vaginas? They’ll feel something exactly like phantom limb syndrome. This is real medical science which has been repeatedly verified over the past 15 years.

    http://discovermagazine.com/1996/jan/transsexualbrain681
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

    The differences are found in brain structures which are known to be impossible to change after birth. Knowing all of this, what should a rational person think about these people? A rational person wouldn’t deny reliable medical science.

    • GallusMag Says:

      I’m letting your comment thru because it is non-abusive, but please direct all future comments to the topic of the post you are commenting on. Your comment says nothing related to the topic at hand.

  25. KatieS Says:

    Yes, fascinating, Cathy. I wanted to comment on some of the points that I’ve thought about.

    I do agree that a good starting point for any other brand-new theory would be radical feminist theory. Not co-opting, not changing radical feminist theory and still calling that, as has been done in the past, but using it as a starting point and applying it to new areas. This would take a consciencious study of it along with discarding a lot of mistaken assumptions. Lies really,that are fed wholesale to everyone who tries to find something of value beyond the horrors of heterosexist patriarchy.

    What I often see in the posts of individuals like Soran and some non-radical feminists are assumptions based in bogus backlash theories that have been heavily promoted. These are longstanding memes in the culture. Because they have not looked at critical analyses of these theories and research, it is believed. These theories need to be critically examined from a radical feminist viewpoint. Most of what is in them will be discarded. The caveman stereotype is just pure bunk, for instance. Widely promoted, so it “sounds” legitimate to the general public.

    Evolutionary psychology is, in general, theoretically very weak. For one thing, it is supported by research starting with effects and working backwards. The research in evopsych is filled with instances of “confirmation bias,” particularly confirmation of sexist practices that exist due to world-wide patriarchy. “Cross-cultural studies show nothing of value when it comes to sexism/misogyny, since it is practically universal in the cultures generally studied.” The history of sexism, ageism, and racism are filled with theories like this and research based on it. It is rare to see the studies cited that refute the sexist confirmation biases that are usually cited as “fact.” Yet there are some studies that do this, well-hidden in the archives.

    Evolutionary psychology memes are most often presented as genetic determinism used to rationalize all kinds of misogynist behavior. “My genes made me do it.” Yet humans are not hard-wired in the ways suggested. Culture is a much bigger factor, individual experience is a much bigger factor, etc.

    There are some interesting threads in evolutionary psychology that are not brought to light as well. One of them is the generally cooperative non-aggressive nature of humans. Humans evolved in tribes. Anyone in these tribes who acted non-cooperatively and aggressively on a regular basis would likely be banned from the tribe and not survive on their own. They’d threaten the tribe’s survival. These genes would not be passed along. Another myth is that everyone died young, right after childbearing years. If you have a culture without records but with an oral tradition of passing down skills and wisdom, a culture that depends on hard-won skills that insure survival, the elders in the tribe are most likely to have the most knowledge. This greatly aids the survival of the tribe. For instance, I know a woman who is a herbalist. She has grown in skill over the years to this day. Yet she has access to writing of other herbalists. Imagine that skill without any written records.

    In fact, there is evidence that many hunter-gatherer cultures were actually horticulturalists with far greater skill than seen today in patriarchy’s rape of the planet called agriculture. No wild raping cavemen in the horticultural pre-history. Women were often in charge or had equal power in these cultures. This history is suppressed as all women’s history is suppressed. Evol psych as it is currently misused by popularizers and also by those in the field just supports patriarchy and backlash.

  26. yttik Says:

    I do not believe that there can be an alliance between trans and rad/fems, We’re going in opposite directions, rad/fems tend to view gender as a social construct, and trans seem to want to reinforce that social construct.

    I do think the rad/fem agenda supports the freedom to not be restricted by rigid gender roles. Rad/fems certainly don’t want more masculinized men or more feminized women. The vast majority of us are interested in embracing gender diversity, in supporting those who deviate from the standard the culture forces on us all. Trans can be a part of that, just as men can be a part of that, because all people are harmed by this patriarchal system. The thing is, rad/fems are focusing on the oppression of women, of half the human race, and because that is our struggle, we get to define it, to own it, to set boundaries within it. Men can be allies, trans can be allies, but there are some places they cannot go. Ultimately I believe a rad/fem agenda will greatly benefit trans-people, so this exclusion is not based on hatred or discrimination, we’re trying to create a better world for everyone, while also protecting female safety.

    Male entitlement, sexual violence against women, homophobia,misogyny, racism, classism, rigid gender roles, all these things harm women, but they harm trans too. So a rad/fem agenda is an agenda that is in the best interests of trans.

  27. Big Kate Says:

    please may I make a request I can understand your anger at transexuals but transexuals do not equal transgender or trans. I know the media uses transgender to mean transexuals but then the media invented suffragettes as diminutive when talking about the women’s suffrage movement. You know the same media that described feminism as man haters and bra-burners etc.

    Trans(gender) is about challenging ‘traditional’ assumptions about gender and yes it does include within that transexuals and cross-dressers and transvestites and drag queens but it also includes drag kings and butch women and gender queer and huge variety of diversity.

    So if you want to go after transexual people because you think that once you been labelled at birth by a doctor as male then your male for life and visa versa so be it. if you want transexual peope banned from michigan unless they were labelled as female ta birth by a doctor, then that’s fine

    but could you at least recognise that their is diversity out there and not ignore all that diversity and only concentrate on a frankly a very small aspect of transgender

    thanks

    Big Kate

    • GallusMag Says:

      MWMF has nothing to do with transsexuals, transgender, or who is or is not a “real” woman. It’s a group of women who gather on the basis of having the shared experience of growing up as girls and living as women in a violently anti-female society. That’s what WBW space is: space for those who have shared and are healing from a PARTICULAR experience, a SIGNIFICANT, SINGULAR experience. It has nothing to do with “exclusion”.
      And your comment has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS POST. All further comments should relate in some way to the topic of this thread. Thank you.

      • GallusMag Says:

        People who say MWMF is “exclusionary” are people who believe being born female in this society is an INSIGNIFICANT experience. People who say MWMF is “exclusionary” believe that human beings born female have no RIGHT to gather together on that basis. People who say MWMF is “exclusionary” HATE and DISRESPECT the human beings that are born female.

    • maggie Says:

      This won’t get through moderation but that kind of statement really gets on my nerves.

      You talk the talk of men and you don’t realise it. You may put on feminine airs and claim to look better than WBW – wtf does that even mean – for who? MEN?

      But when you write the words down then the patriarchial influence you grew up in just jumps off the screen and, quite frankly, smacks us in the face.

      You may erase your maleness through surgery but you can’t ever hope to erase the socialisation. Ever.

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      LOL, I am still getting over this phrasing, it has given me almost hours of amusement:

      once you been labelled at birth by a doctor as male

      ummm, Big Kate, hate to break it to you, but it will be the penis and scrotum that make them CATEGORISE you as male. Being a SEX category and all. Nothing to do with your beloved gender (which is invisible remember? how exactly do you propose they ‘test’ or ‘assess’ for ‘internal gender’ eh?) So cry me a river, you had been correctly categorised according to your biological sex, not some internal, invisible, airyfairy gender fantasy that makes you like pink sparkly crap (which has little to do with the configuration of reproductive organs).

      /end PSA

  28. Bev Jo Says:

    Big Kate, do not tell me, as a lifelong Butch, that I am “transgender” because I am definitely not. “Transgender” does not include me in any way and is destroying my community and harms me personally. I know this is the cult line, which is part of the mind-fuck cooption of Butches.

    I also have to answer Lexi’s “A rational person wouldn’t deny reliable medical science.” What is “reliable medical science” is in the mind of the beholder. Science has not been the friend of females and Lesbians, or of most of the world. Science called us mentally ill. Science told us that white men were the pinnacle of evolution, which then supported genocide and gynocide. My aunt was a victim of US science’s eugenics.

    But then, of course, patriarchy loves to call women “irrational.”

    And what is the accusation of a lie again? By someone who equates the male penis with a female vagina? Only males and the male-identified are so obsessed with vaginas that they forget it is but a small part of female vulvas. But “vulva” is not to be mentioned. And certainly clitorises aren’t either. This is all about what Gallus said about “being born female in this society is an INSIGNIFICANT experience.” And is also about the “HATE and DISRESPECT” she referred to that is aimed at females. Vulvas are incredibly powerful. Vaginas are what men and patriarch and their media focus on because that is what is of interest to men. Clitorises and the entire vulva is extremely threatening.

    I mean, how dare such insignificant beings as women say “no” to men?

  29. Bev Jo Says:

    No, I am not arguing with you, Soran. I am daring to talk to the women here about your post. And I think that is the problem you are having. You want, insist, demand Lesbians give you our time and energy. You don’t take “no” for an answer. So you taunt and insult me into relating to you, which is how so many men treat Lesbians.

    I don’t lie. I comment on what I see. And everyone here can read your comments about what you have said.

    You ARE acting on your “trans” feelings as long as you identify yourself and any other man as a “transwoman.” You say you are a man, but also “But I worry a lot about other trans women,” “I can’t vouch for other transwomen, and “I don’t know what they mean by ‘woman” in reference to the one in my head, beyond the body I think I should have.”

    I say there is no such thing as “transwomen” and to insist there is, is in itself an assault on all females because “trans” are appropriating an identity that does not belong to any man. You continue the myth that harms us, while pretending to be an ally.

    No, I was not telling you that “PIV is harmful” or anything else. I was not talking to you. But I WAS commenting on your shoving down our throats about how PIV and patriarchy are natural and inevitable. How dare I not obey you and agree? No, I really am not wasting time imagining anything about you. I was commenting on your typical male arrogance in lecturing a group of women about what you think you know best.

    You focus on mammals because you want to push pricks and PIV at us, but mammals are the minority of animals.

    So why are you wanting to convince us how natural PIV is? I am not a paranoid person, but cannot avoid noticing how you have managed to post on a Radical Feminist blog the words and image of penises and women and other female animals being fucked repeatedly. That is certainly not necessary to say who and what our enemy is.

    How am I saying that “everyone who is capable of rape should keep the weapon loaded at all times?” You act as if you are more radical than any feminist, and that you must tell US that men should castrate themselves. Do you not know who you are talking to? We were saying “disarm rapists” forty years ago. I’m a Lesbian Separatist. Of course I believe all potential rapists should castrate themselves.

    So why the lecture other than that you think we stupid Lesbians need you to tell us what we have been saying and writing for decades? Have you told us a single thing that we don’t already know? So what is this about other than to brag about your male self?

  30. Bev Jo Says:

    Oh Gallant Gallus, I love you too!!!

    It’s okay — you proved what so many have asked and needed proving — no alliance with these men.

  31. Soran Says:

    Agreed. Transgender culture as it exists today is incompatible with radical feminism, and WBW space should be preserved. But one way or another, people who have these issues have become influential, and should be exposed to radical feminist views. I think radical feminism is part of the antidote to the medical industry’s influence.

    Also, a good article on male behavior is “Rape: A Bigger Threat Than Feminists Know,” by Camille Paglia.

  32. Bev Jo Says:

    “Transgender” is incompatible with all females and our rights, and not just “today.” It’s a myth, a lie, a con. When women agree with it, it’s like date rape. Horrible.

    Camille Paglia? The right wing invention to destroy Feminism? Well, Soran recommending her certainly is revealing.

    These men are not our friends.

  33. Noanodyne Says:

    Advice to Soran: In case you can’t tell by now, this isn’t a good forum for your ideas. Start a blog of your own on WordPress — it’s free and easy — and build a community of people who want to talk about the issues you’re raising. It’s well worth having more voices discussing all these things, but in the right spaces. You gain a lot by creating your own space for the discussion and having to stand by what you’re saying over time and managing what other people contribute to the conversation. Gallus Mag was kind to provide the space for your post, but I think it’s time for you to carry the water for your own ideas and the discussion around them. Start your own blog with the post you put up here and see who shows up to contribute.

  34. SheilaG Says:

    Camille Paglia is not a radical feminist, not even close. She is a posturing naricissist who is provacative.

    There can be no commonality between trans and radical feminists now, or in the future. And the reason is simple, MtoTrans always have been men, and there will be no medical invention of “female.”
    Patriarchy seeks to destroy women’s liberation and community every way it can. It is dangerous to men if born women create women only places. Very dangerous, and they attempt to invade and destroy, invade and co-opt, invade and penis flash, because this is who men are.

    Radical feminism is the wake up call to all born women worldwide, it goes into every race, creed and culture of the world. And our challenge is to expose as many women to this liberating philosophy as possible. We don’t give a damn what men think… it’s always same old same old, but women need to hear the message, women need to see a large number of lesbians defending and kicking out the female impersonators, and to take a stand… I’d say if the lesbian nation went into high geer, you’d rid Michigan of these gate crashers.

    You cannot negotiate with terrorists and that is what the MtoTrans gate crashers are.

  35. yttik Says:

    Women don’t really have an identity all their own We’ve pretty much been defined by men. So when you try to build solidarity among women, there are already huge challenges, because we’ve been taught not to align ourselves along gender lines. Women aren’t supposed to see other females and identify with them, we’re supposed to view them as the enemy. So we only have this one thing we can try to align ourselves with, the condition of being female. Then along comes the trans and it’s like, no you can’t even have that. You don’t even get to claim that one thing. Not even that belongs to you now.

    The thing is, women are more than half the human race. There’s real power there when we come together. We do have all these other identities, lesbians, WOC, politics, but as one big group, just being female is huge. It’s the majority. Even without the bullying, the invasion of women’s space, trans take away women’s ability to build an identity for themselves that we can create solidarity around.

  36. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Yttik, I REALLY like what you say above, and I agree with every word…..especially that we cannot align with each other along our own born Female line, AS women, every kind of born Female woman. The male born are always trying to do divide and conquer on us, while preserving their OWN male spaces and bastions like male sports teams, backroom deals, elite military operatives, and the scariest of all: The Bohemian Club, where they do ritual, dress in drag, and discuss the fate of the world and how they are going to move money and power that affects the rest of us. Should we try to get into their clubs, it’s a constant fight, and often violence, either emotional or physical is foisted upon us. I really like the line “the invasion of women’s space, trans take away women’s ability to build an identity for them(our)selves that we can create solidarity around.” And this from SheilaG which I wholeheartedly agree with: “You cannot negotiate with terrorists and that is what the M to Trans gate crashers are.” Yes, indeed, and that’s an accurate way to put it, especially that violence happened last year around this, and the destruction of Michfest property and constant forcing their way in, wearing t shirts to announce their presence, and getting women and Lesbians to identify with them, rather than each other, at their/our expense, as women have been taught from day 1 under patriarchy!

    But this year it was different. The women of Michfest that honor the WBW policy and need for that space, fought back, organized, got visible, had their own workshops and spoke out. More power to them/us! Hopefully I can visit in the next two years!

    And one last thing: I am a Female Proud Butch Dyke, and in NO WAY am I trans, nor do I want to be, and neither is my Butch Dyke partner. Yes, we transgress heterosexual gender roles and boxes that women are rewarded or punished for conforming/not conforming to, but we are still ALL FEMALE, ALL DYKE, and ALL WOMON no matter what, and have no intention of ‘becoming male’ no matter HOW we express ourselves. And the Butchiest most masculine appearing(in conventional terms) Butch at Michfest, who has no intention of transitioning, the hirsute Butches, the naturally flatchested and deep voice Butches who are fully organically themselves who haven’t had sex changing surgeries(breast removal) or gone on male hormones for the purpose of changing their outward appearance further, who have only Michfest to show up to be themselves, are NOT trans either, and yet now they are assumed to be, BECAUSE of the transapologists, and the pressure to yet again conform and identify as male because they are at the very fringes of womonhood, as defined by the heteropatriarchy…and yet they still are FEMALE, Dykes, and Female proud! But like a cult the trans movement wants to force Butch Dykes to be part and parcel of it, even if we are PROUD to be Female, and want no part of the patriarchy in our body, mind or spirit, but just to express ourselves in accordance with our deepest knowing and being, and resistance to the powerlessness and helplessness so many women are taught. The resistance to feminization. And for THAT we are villified and run out of womonhood and taught to deny our very Femaleness and independent defiant, wild Amazon natures…now not just by the hetero world, but by the queer one as well!
    -FeistyAmazon

  37. maggie Says:

    FeistyAmazon: you are all woman and that was a wonderful post. I particularly like this:

    “But like a cult the trans movement wants to force Butch Dykes to be part and parcel of it, even if we are PROUD to be Female, and want no part of the patriarchy in our body, mind or spirit, but just to express ourselves in accordance with our deepest knowing and being, and resistance to the powerlessness and helplessness so many women are taught. The resistance to feminization. And for THAT we are villified and run out of womonhood and taught to deny our very Femaleness and independent defiant, wild Amazon natures…now not just by the hetero world, but by the queer one as well!”

    So beautifully put. As a WBW, I’ve no idea what I identify as but I’m sure not a feminised, as defined by the patriarchy, woman. I think of myself as an amazon as well.

  38. SheilaG Says:

    Maggie– you just summed it up so perfectly… you cannot erase socialization as a male. And the MtTrans folks keep thinking it’s all about hormones or how the body is carved up to approximate a female form. But what about 20-some years growing up socialized as a boy and a man?

    How would this affect your communication patterns with girls and women?

    And this never seems to be addressed by the MtTrans gang. And they appear even worse on the printed page. That is why what they write here and elsewhere screams off the page MALE, know-it-all, boss women around, sexist… to radical feminists who are well versed in the movement to end male supremacy… our movement is about women’s LIBERATION. So we know well what the battles are, we know how men undermine and terrorize women, we know the tactics, and we’ve done the homework.

    MtTrans think THEY know it all, that they need not obey rules that women landholders create, that private property controlled by women has no validity.
    So they gate crash Michigan, or like Soran, they have no clue.

    I believe that men could learn a thing or two about women through radical feminist critique of patriarchy. All of us can really learn more about oppression, hierarchies and how to try to be more just individuals.

    But since most men are socialized to believe that “woman” is all about the dresses, the painted nails, the vanity… men experience women as a pampered male created beauty creation. And since men rarely if ever converse with women as serious colleagues or equals, they wouldn’t know would they.

    They think the package is the woman, which is why cutting up bodies and creating fake vaginas is all they talk about.

    • DaveSquirrel Says:

      And since men rarely if ever converse with women as serious colleagues or equals, they wouldn’t know would they.

      This is probably exactly it, SheilaG.
      They can only ever view us as ‘other’.

  39. SheilaG Says:

    I like to compare trans to the immigrant experience.
    If you were born and raised in Cuba, and 25-30 years later you move to the U.S., you might become an American citizen on paper. But there are American cultural things you just might not know.

    Even if I go to UK, as an American, I am not British from birth, I wasn’t raised in the culture.

    That is what trans refuse to honor… the lived experience of born women, and that this might matter a great deal to us.

    How does it feel to be a woman and have a male person flash a penis at you in a women’s restroom, or to have a male come into an all female event?
    How does this feel to born women?

    And until the trans show a true effort at truly honoring women’s liberation and all it stands for, they will continue to be the clueless oppressors they are. Women want our freedom and sisterhood, and radical feminists want freedom from male dominance and entitlement period.

    You can’t erase socialization! Can’t be done.

  40. silverside Says:

    A couple of months ago, I started a blog cataloguing and commemorating lost womyn’s space, and I’d hate to add Michigan to the list. One thing I have learned is how ancient the male obsession with invading womyn’s space really is. In ancient Greece, women had virtually no role in public life. No public space. They did, however, have a 3-day all women festival called the Thesmophoria honor of Demeter and her daughter, Persephone. And yet according to a play by Aristophanes, Greek men were intent on sneaking in and crashing the festival. Some things never change….

  41. KatieS Says:

    Great blog, silverside! It’s really something to see the photos, too. Gives me an awareness that this herstory existed.

    Another set of lost women’s spaces are women’s bookstores. From what I’ve seen, if they are still in business, they have turned into LGBT bookstores and seem to have more books about gay men and sex than anything else. Not exactly what women or lesbians want to be reading. I believe that it’s because men have more money to spend on books.

  42. Bev Jo Says:

    I have to add that it will never be about “trans” going past their socialization to learn what it is to be women. Their difference from real women is so far past what it is like to move to another country and learn the culture. You could be born in another country, but grow up here and learn this culture. Even if a boy were actually raised as a girl, the difference is fundamental and biological. Of course I do not believe for a moment that any of the female impersonators grew up thinking they were girls since they don’t have the slightest idea about girls, and so many of them decide they are women after decades of male privilege.

    I was reminded again about that deeply biological difference a few days ago on a nature walk where the group was first told about an animal we were going to see, to respect and honor it, which the girls and adults did. But a two-year-old boy threw rocks at the little helpless animal. As a smug woman there explained, “He’s a little boy.” So I responded, “Girls never do that.” Almost every time I see boys in nature, they are trying to injure, torture, or kill some living being. Even when they are too young to have been “socialized,” even when everyone around them has told them “no,” they still do it. This is behind their destruction of the earth, and is why they can NEVER become us.

  43. Bev Jo Says:

    Silverside, that is great information! I will add it to my list too. I remember Patricia Jackson from the early days of Lesbian Feminism here in the very early Seventies, and a member of our collective in 1973 left to join a Lesbian land in Arkansas and wrote to us about the spraying. I believe she is back here too.

  44. SheilaG Says:

    Stunning Blog on womyn’s space lost through the mists of time.

    And I too grew up hearing about the Kitty Genovese murder, but then a couple of years ago I was stunned speechless to find out she had been a lesbian… kind of butchy or not quite passing, and that it might have been a “lesbian bashing” or a reason she was murdered.

    Since I have so few emotional connections to lesbian anything as a child, the fact that this murder of a lone woman in NYC while everyone did nothing made a huge impact on me as a little girl. I vowed that I would not remain silent myself in such a situation. And I didn’t.

  45. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Yep put it on mine too, and listed all the women’s/lesbian businesses lost in SF and some lost in the East Bay as well. Forgot to put down the Brick Hut Cafe.

    As far as the Kitty Genovese murder, now that I reread it, it TERRIFIED me, as I grew up in NYC at that time(from when I was born in 1960-when we left in 1972). An incident of sexual violence happened to me at 9 years old when I walked my dog at Riverside Park. I HATED NYC as a kid. I never knew she was a Lesbian, and now that is even more chilling to me. I don’t know if I knew about that case at age 4, but certainly when I got a little older as it was often talked about, and every time I read about it, or heard about, and I read/heard ALL the details of the neighbors looking on and not doing a thing as she was brutally raped and murdered, I identified with her, and felt so badly for her, and not one even called a cop to stop it! This may be one reason, besides what happened to me at age 9, that I took up the martial arts at age 14 and have stayed in it ever since, and when I get the opportunity to teach it to womyn, and to NEVER be complacent when one woman is being assaulted/violated!

    It also shows the cowed socialization of those who never want to interfere with others’ pain and to stay out of everyone’s business as long as it doesn’t personally have to do with you. From what I understand it is a unique city mentality, and NYC is the biggest city of all in the U.S. with way too many people in too small an environment. We should NEVER be complacent when a woman is being abused. Even if you think you can’t handle the situation alone, at least call the cops and get some intervention.
    Even if they shouted out the windows instead of perversely watched and showed him that he was being noticed in his perpetration may have changed the outcome.
    -FeistyAmazon

  46. FeistyAmazon Says:

    Maggie, thank you! From one Amazon to another!
    -In Sisterhood,
    -FeistyAmazon

  47. silverside Says:

    Thanks to all for your comments. Glad you like the blog!

  48. doctressjulia Says:

    I read this post after a day where EVERY MAN I had dealings with treated me like shit, AGAIN. Men who are supposed to be my ‘friends’. I was told last night ‘none of that MATTERS’ by a man who claims to care about me.They abuse me and then they APOLOGIZE, as if that makes it all OK. My entire worldview has been shaken by finding radical feminism. I used to read Feministing and Manboobs and Feministe, and then I found IBTP. I am scared, I am crying right now, I can’t stop. I can’t sleep. I live with a man (are we friends? lol) and I have nowhere to go. I am sorry for this comment- delete it if you want… but that please know I am HERE, and I am learning. And I am angry, and I am sickened by the way things are.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Don’t despair. You are not alone. Having your consciousness raised and living with your eyes open can be a bit of a shock, we’re all so accustomed to putting blinders on just to deal with it. Do not be afraid. You must sleep, and rest, and eat, and take the very best loving care of yourself. You are strong and we are with you.

    • GallusMag Says:

      On a lighter (?) note- having one’s consciousness raised can be like the sunglasses scene from “They Live”:

  49. Bev Jo Says:

    Oh Julia, yes, take care, and know we are here and care about you. You are not alone.

    Gallus, that is an amazing post/video! Thank you! Would it be okay to copy it to my fb page for more to see?

  50. SheilaG Says:

    Julia— I am so glad your comment wasn’t deleted… heavens… we so need to hear what all women have to say, and how we all learn to break out of the mind cages patriarchal builds around all of us.

    Radical freedom is often not very fun… you certainly will never win a popularity contest by being a lesbian separatist, a separatist supporter or even a beginner radical feminist.

    It is scary to wake up and realize you are living with a man who might be abusive, or who might not give a damn about you… a wake up call. Or the feeling of knowing you can’t escape or have the financial means to make it without men…. even knowing this is a painful thing.

    But one thing about radical feminists, is we are very persistent in trying to get out the truth, trying to reach as many women as possible before it’s too late. We know what we are up against, we know how oppressed women are, how male controlled they are, how rare it is to even have radfem space to write without being trolled, threatened with rape, attacked by males and male impersonators… just for our excersizing our right to crititque the malestream.

    Keep reading, keep thinking, never give up!!!

  51. GallusMag Says:

    FYI – I only delete female-hating comments.


  52. Thanks for the replies and the supportive comments. Just… thanks.

  53. Zee Says:

    I’m sick of having patriarchy foisted on to my shoulders. Yes I like skirts. I’ll be the first one to defend you for wearing pants. I’m sure there’s something wrong with what I just said. Shall we rally to ban cosmetics or restrict their usage to burn victims? How about the color pink? For generations men have colonized the women’s space with an invasive species known as “carnations”…


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