First Time Dressing Fully Male (FTM)

July 4, 2013

first time dressing fully male (ftm)

http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/1hkpl9/first_time_dressing_fully_male_sorry_for_bad/

104 Responses to “First Time Dressing Fully Male (FTM)”

  1. wildwomyn Says:

    Person doesn’t look like a male.

  2. Nobody Special Says:

    That’s what she calls “dressing fully male”? I see a young woman dressed much like other young women.

    Also hint: the hips don’t lie.

    • druidwinter Says:

      She forgot, men don’t wear thick necklaces. Also, her arms are crossed and close to her body-, women do that when they feel insecure. Men only cross their arms when pissed, and even then, men dont wrap their arms around their bodies in a passive way[their arms are front & center and their elbows dont touch their body.. IMHO, She is not very male, but embarrassed or feels bad to be a female and is trying to find a way around it, or find empowerment in another identity..

      • Anon Male Says:

        Good grief dude, I think most humans put their arms in any number of given positions throughout the day. Helps with the circulation. You keep acting like you’re on the same page as folks around here but you’re really a genderist (as evinced elsewhere) who thinks you can sandwich your stuff on top of feminist theory.

        There are all sorts of helpful lists like yours on how to stand around [ON GENDER!] but it’s amazing that none of them she read mentioned that showing your arms off is just inviting trouble for a guy; no one going sleeveless ever has a better day than they would otherwise. But WTF do I know, she could live in Phoenix for all I know? She could be hanging with xtian fundamentalist surfer boys who dig chunky necklaces? Who the hell knows? So why say anything proscriptive?

        The only thing I know for sure is that wearing a shirt that says “I rock!” is only appropriate when hung over and slumped over the handlebar of a lawnmower while wearing flipflops. That’s the only way that a universe of overly intentional irony collapses on itself and becomes cool again.

    • margeaux Says:

      Trans is totally the new punk. I used to work with the F2T from a reality show about Trans teens. She didn’t turn into a grown man, she became a sort of 13 year old annoying boy. Any male privilege she thought she was going to get got smacked away by grown-ups in the office.

      • druidwinter Says:

        @anonmale: ah- No dude, I wish.

        I would like to believe that, and that would be the ideal that we all strive for, ….however, women are expected to adopt cowering tucked postures- like they are asking for permission to assert when asserting themselves, and look less threatening, otherwise they are labeled ‘pushy bitches’ and the flaming starts.. Men are guided to stand strong & tall with dominant positions. They do not get corrected for Dominant postures, just women do.

        In the photo, She is asking in a overly insecure, polite way. If this had been an actual male, he would get flamed for asking a narcissistic question and cowering and looking for compliments that their actions are ‘approved’ of.

        Men dont have to present themselves that way, it is not being a ‘whiny bitch’ to society to challenge the rules for a man.

        A man wants to say something, you are expected to listen, especially if you are a woman. by contrast-
        A woman says something, you have to ‘double check’ and ask around to see if she is a nutcase for being assertive.

        Assertive women are called ‘angry’ and irrational when they emulate male expressions or body language. That right there is ‘gender bias’

        I am just pointing out an observation.

        At first, I only picked up on dominate male postures, and was ‘taught’ female crap -which is basically a bunch of cowering shit that makes females less threatening to males in social situations..

        I have aspergers and was corrected about how it ‘looked funny’ for a female to have natural ‘boy’ postures. So, it is not on me. 😛

        This is part of pink brainwashing all XX females are exposed to,
        They attempted to hammer ‘stereotypical female’ gender actions, so I can fit in and not stand out. Some XY ASD males get confused about not being allowed female postures after exposure to ‘pink brainwashing’,

        There is no logic behind these roles. Reproductive difference makes sence, but how do you tell a raccoon is acting like a female? How do female and male cats differ in personality? Can you tell a cats’ sex by behaviour? Is it the same when you look to people? We are just other mammals and dont really have these differences-they are taught from a young age.

        Why are female children given a baby doll that pisses it’s pants- and told this is fun? Gender role programming from childhood. I did not want a pissing doll. I played with my brother’s erector set and built shit and launched model rockets.

        It is true with many male & females with ASD. Go to wrong plannet.org and you with find the most gender-less conversations you will ever read. We don’t pick up on gender social cues-so the ‘education’ we receive to go into society as adults first makes the attempt to re-educate us on gender roles to accept this as ‘normal society.’

        At 20 years old, I even questioned that -If I am not very female, then I must be ‘male’ and crossed dressed in suits & ties for two years. Came to the conclusion that it is just the aspergers, and I am just a biological female with aspergers.

      • Anon Male Says:

        And even if she had nailed her performance and props an Oscar winner, it still wouldn’t have mattered, so how useful is any of this to anyone who isn’t trying to be a grad student?

        Call me skeptical about the utility of that.

        And of the fact that it takes someone who laments someone saying “women have vaginas” as terribly offensive [which you have] to focus not so much on the clothing or the anatomy but on “performance.” :shrug:

        I’d also find the whole ASD thing so much more interesting if if MRAs hadn’t been using it for 20 years (all the way since Backlash.org) to talk about how they’re super robots unencumbered by societal bullshit which they all deem feminine and out to get them.

        Besides, all of that presumes that there isn’t something fucked up with males on a more basic level. Which seems to be the case. And if that’s true, males have to do something about that to minimize what harm they do and can possibly do — and that probably means ASD dudes are less capable of taking responsibility for that, even if they can totally be gender free noble savages on teh_internets.

      • anoner55 Says:

        Anon Male,

        You might find this aspect of ASD more interesting, and for some reason you don’t hear about it as much–hmm, I wonder why? ASD girls and women are more vulnerable to sexual abuse than girls and women without ASD, because their social naivety, inability to read social cues, and often occurring social isolation make them particularly inviting to males looking to prey on vulnerable females:

        http://shazwellyn.hubpages.com/hub/Autism-Spectrum-Disorder-Aspergers-Syndrome-Women-Girls-Dr-Attwood

        Just wanted to bring up a little-discussed aspect of ASD.

      • Adrian Says:

        “She didn’t turn into a grown man, she became a sort of 13 year old annoying boy.”
        Heh. “Mid-teens annoying boy” definitely seems to be the endpoint (if not the explicit GOAL) for a lot of F2T. Complete with all the misogyny that often implies.

        Possibly it’s just where they “pass” best…

  3. KittyBarber Says:

    That’s just kind of silly, isn’t it? I mean, what were you wearing before?

  4. Versa Says:

    I would never have guessed she was trying to dress male. I see women (who identify as women) dressed that way all the time. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a MtF dressed that way, all feminine. I wonder what she dressed like before??

    The first time I dressed fully male was when I was a toddler. In fact, my mother cut my hair short (so she could brush it more easily) and I usually wore shirts or tank tops with pants or shorts. In kindergarten I was mistaken for a boy in the girls’ room and told I was in the wrong restroom. My mother chose for me to have short hair, but my attire was my preference. I didn’t care for dresses.

    Nowadays, people would probably assume I was transgendered and insist on calling me “he” and dope me up with hormone blockers before puberty set in. I’m lucky I grew up when I did, and not nowadays.

    • Adrian Says:

      Seriously. I wear men’s clothing right down to the underwear daily and I am not trans. And plenty of women dress like this!

      Jeans, untucked polo shirt, sneakers, tighty-whities. Fits well, is cheap, is suitably plain for my taste. I do have a sports bra on, so there, one item of girly clothing I guess.

      Hell, turns out my glasses are from the men’s half the store also (though I chose them because they looked closest to my old pair, which I think were technically women’s). I want big round wire frames, that’s where they were on the rack, so, done.

  5. SabinaCrna Says:

    Awwww, baby dyke.

    • Violet Irene Says:

      I was just checking in here to see if there was a post about that. I’ve been seeing some pretty mixed reactions around the web. Of course the usual brainwashed lefty blog types shouting that anyone who questions this is a bigot, but there’s also a fair amount of people who aren’t either far conservative or far radical feminist who are annoyed and upset about it…might be encouraging.

  6. 1899fcbarcelona Says:

    Dressing “male”…is that what she calls herself doing? Let’s see:
    Baby bearing hips, check!
    XX female (de la chapelle syndrome does not count), check!
    All the internal workings of a biological female, check!

    Sorry, can’t say she looks male to me.

  7. Ave Says:

    why do these ftm fantasisers always try to copy the 80s ‘whip it good’ type of look?

  8. Ave Says:

    it’s almost as bad as mtf saying they have become such a ‘real woman’ from their ‘transition’ that now they’re going to be a drag king

  9. Bev Jo Says:

    Another example of VERY typically feminine-appearing woman playing at being a “man.” I know she wants the male privileged, but she is as out of touch as the big narcissistic drag queen men insisting they are women.

    Further proof countering the myth that it’s Butches who are F2Ts.

  10. ibleedpurple Says:

    Some of these people are more conservative than the psychs who pioneered the diagnostic criteria for GID. For example, I know that Stoller thinks that trans people either act like “sissies” or “extreme tomboys” during their childhood – accordingly, such a getup would never qualify as sufficient proof for GID. …I shudder to think what kind of “professional” it takes to label dressing in tank tops, comfortable pants and boots “masculine”, supposing that this girl/woman actually wants to go down the path of HRT & SRS.

    It also makes me worry about women’s future when I see such blatant sexism making a comeback under the guise of social justice.

  11. Bluecat Says:

    I’m wearing trousers and a shirt today with flat shoes. No jewellery except the ring I can’t get off.
    Am I dressing male or female?

  12. liberalsareinsane Says:

    She just looks like a nerdy girl. There’s nothing male about her and no one would see her as male. Talk about delusion. Go get a part time job, kid. It will take your brainwashed mind off yourself.

  13. IceMountainFire Says:

    Okay, I came back a few times hoping I get the point of this fashion as “male” when I “re-start” my eyes a few times… still, no.
    Actually, when I was a girl of her age I wouldn’t have dressed like this because it would have been much too feminine and stereotypically “sexy” for my taste.

    But how tiny and narrow must “gender roles” be for today’s young girls if pants and black top already qualify as “unfeminine”…

    • Adrian Says:

      In 2013, even T-shirts are gendered.

      I see the picture above is from Reddit, but you can find plenty of FTM posing people in “fuckyeahftms” on tumblr, and you can find people (usually high school girls) complaining that their parents are all upset about them “crossdressing” or complaining about them acting too “boyish” when they wear regular T-shirts – straight cut T-shirts. Why? Because girls are supposed to wear “women’s” T-shirts (yes, marketed that way) which are tight and form-fitting and “sexy” and small.

      Aside from that you can find plenty of non-trans just regular band fan teenage and college boys who choose the girl shirt when they want the tight jeans/hipster look though, so I guess it’s okay for them to “cross over.”

      Mostly I just feel sorry for those girls having such rigid gender obsessed parents. Maybe it’s not so surprising they find themselves wonder if they “really are boys” if that’s the level of restrictions they’re facing.

  14. margeaux Says:

    It’s not just the clothes–look at her body language. Look at her stance. No man-born-male stands like that. She’s darling and should love herself as she is, I think. Where’s her mother?

  15. Brunhilda Says:

    ..is she insane?

    • moira Says:

      Yes. She’s been conditioned to believe she is subhuman and does not really exist, that the oppression she experiences does not “count” and if she wants anyone to care about her life and her pain (including being able to take these seriously herself) then she must “identify” as anything but female. So I guess you could call this woman insane, or you could look at the conditions that created her form of dissociative disorder.

      • moira Says:

        This is directed at the person pictured in the photograph: I was you, or close enough, in the 90s. I was part of one of the early cohorts of female transitioners. I really feel for you. If you want to talk, let’s figure out a way to make that happen.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Good point moira

  16. Bev Jo Says:

    She reminds me of the young, very feminine woman I met last year who I asked if she was a Lesbian, and she said, “No, I identify as genderqueer and use male pronouns for myself.” And then later heard a man two to three times her age ever-so-respectfully refer to her (when she wasn’t present) as “he” and “him.” I think that is a lot of it right there — getting a bit of male privilege.

    • Violet Irene Says:

      I have seen this too and I admit it completely baffles me. Some 60 year old man playing along with a 20 year old’s pretend play dressing up like daddy…

  17. Anonymous Radical Feminist Says:

    I wear shit like this more often than not. Guess I dress like a man now?

    This is so sad.😦

  18. moss Says:

    (I was sure that was going to be the ‘before’ photo!)
    (Maybe she’s going for ‘faggy’ male; that seems to be the aspiration for many young girls.)

  19. Bev Jo Says:

    Feminism has been available in libraries and elsewhere for over forty years now. I don’t think of women like this as victims anymore because they are not just betraying themselves for more privilege. They don’t want to be us. They want as much male privilege as a woman can get at our expense. I see them refusing to make eye contact, desperately avoiding what might make them be seen as a Lesbian.

    My sympathy is with the women who are not narcissistic enough and who do not hate us enough to try to not be us anymore. The trans cult is hurting us individually and as a movement. We need to support those who are saying no.

    • Versa Says:

      One of the most misogynistic individuals I’ve ever encountered was a FtM. She made no secret of her hatred for women and admitted it flat out.

      She hated femaleness so much that she sought to eradicate it in herself, and condemn it in everyone else. It was really sad.

      It was really hard to sympathize with her cause or to respect the trans* community with her representing it.

      • moira Says:

        Versa,

        Yes, this is definitely a real phenomenon. It is really sad, as well as infuriating and scary. No woman is born feeling that way about being female, of course. We all get traumatized, though the ways may vary, and some of us don’t survive it even if we keep living. None of which is to say that we should put up with woman-hating behavior from anyone regardless of their sex–but in these cases it’s internalized misogyny, and thanks for recognizing that.

    • moira Says:

      None of those feminist materials are “available” from within this subculture. There’s another ideology calling itself “feminism” which claims that such materials are violently hateful and as racist as the KKK. To the extent that you’re exposed to them, it’s through the skewed lens of intellectually dishonest criticisms. Also, books from the past being matched against a well-populated subculture full of peers who might date you or be your friends.

      The people this young woman looks up to and desperately seeks to belong with have made actual feminism the most powerful taboo imaginable, and done so by way of such complicated reversals and mind-fucking linguistic tricks that you’d have to be a pretty extraordinary *teenager* to see through it. This girl is not the enemy, and her behavior isn’t narcissist. It’s internalized misogyny of the highest order. I would bet good money she’s experienced intimate abuse for being female. If you treat her as the enemy it just plays into all the lies she’s being told about second wavers/radical feminists.

      Frankly, Bev Jo, I wonder where *were* all the women who think like you do when I came out into this queer subculture in the 90s, and there was zero actually-lesbian culture available to me? Do lesbians have a responsibility to the next generation of women? Or do we who have made it this far just get to sit back and smugly judge them? This may be the first generation of young women in this culture who have not been either entirely closeted or had a lesbian subculture to come out into, but had misogynist queer subculture in its stead. Can we expect them to thrive under such circumstances? Obviously, young lesbians and other gender nonconforming girls are much less likely to have intact family bonds and thus are more vulnerable to cults and other group-pressuring, because humans are social creatures with social needs who tend not to survive well on our own.

      What is accomplished by us feeling superior and mocking this young person? Is that radical? Because the “other side” is offering its twisted version of “acceptance” (conditional upon self-mutilation of body/psyche, of course) which is all too easy to fall into when you’re trained to it from birth, and probably looks on the surface a lot more attractive than what she may find here, again on the surface. The girls/young women who are doing this are trying to get their very real and legitimate needs met, in the only way they see available.

      I would rather try to figure out how to actually meet those needs–and shift their paradigms, open their eyes–than make them the butt of my jokes and the object of my judgment. That’s called doing men’s work for them.

      By the way, Bev Jo, I would respect your position more if it were addressing the many, many women of your generation (butch and otherwise) who are choosing to transition in order to avoid becoming old women–having had the benefit of lesbian community for decades prior to this behavior. But I’m not going to co-sign eating our young as an ideological position. For young gender-nonconforming girls, there is no “movement” to betray! Where is it in their lives? What social support does it offer them? What vision does it give them for a future that is not only bearable but beautiful? In 12-step recovery many alcoholics say about the loneliness they were attempting to medicate: “drugs are where the people are.” Well, for these girls, trans is where the people are.

      Again, I say to the subject of this post: I would rather talk *to* you than *about* you. Get in touch if you want to connect with someone who’s been through this. I get it. You’re likely mad that I gave you female pronouns/called you a girl–I would’ve been; I would’ve let that be enough to disregard the substance of any communication–but understand in my world, that is an ultimate sign of respect and acknowledgment of the humanity we have in common.

    • Ks Says:

      And the saddest thing is that trans barely ever pass as their desired sex. Sure people may pity them but the majority of people (men and women) are not going to look at such an example and think that she is truly a man. They may desire male privilege but sadly we males won’t ever accept them as real men (look at the trans blogs where they try to mimic male mannerisms, yes they look and act more “faggy” than me!), defeating their unattainable goal.

      We have cases were F2T are upset that they aren’t welcome in gay men’s spaces for example. It’s all very sad really until the threats and violence (mostly from M2T) make me lose any shred of sympathy for these “narcissists”.

      • moira Says:

        Hi Ks,

        Yes, it’s my experience that most ftms don’t ever really pass or get male privilege; only some pass, an even for them, male privilege is highly conditional. I believe what most of them are after is not privilege but humanity, which sure looks like privilege coming from a female position.

        I would like to hear more about “cases were F2T are upset that they aren’t welcome in gay men’s spaces.” I’d asked a friend about this and he said the spaces he went to were welcoming. I was surprised to hear that but chalked it up to men being open to what they see as novelty sex with people they wouldn’t actually date or commit to. Also, obviously females don’t represent a threat of sexual violence to gay men, the way males do to lesbians. But still.

        Also, of course I’m not advocating that we feel sorry for narcissistic autogynephiles who use trans identity as a strategy for terrorizing women. But trans means all things to all people, and those men are not the only ones going under that name, by far. I think the distinctions matter.

        If, as I often hear around these parts, we really believe female reality matters, then that is still true for females who call themselves trans or men. They don’t stop being of concern to me just because they are in dissociative disorder-land. Girls and women often end up there one way or another. This is only one of its faces.

      • Adrian Says:

        @moira – Anecdotal only, but I’ve read in quite a few F2T diaries online where F2T are upset that they went to a gay bar, they were tolerated in there (maybe) but someone made a comment that made it clear they weren’t passing, referred to as “she” or called “girl” or maybe just turned down for interaction with a blunt “we don’t date girls” and it ruined their whole day because up to that point they were sure they were passing.

        Because yeah, very often they’re not passing. If they manage to be read as male, often they read as young teenaged boys. There seems to be a sweet spot where that sort of works, younger people in the high-school or college-aged social scene (but even by college age actual males are looking quite a bit different and older).

        Quite possibly places are welcoming but still don’t treat those people as just “one of the guys, we couldn’t tell” which is what they want.

        Surely it has to be harder in middle age. FWIW, there is an F2T employee at my workplace, she transitioned while working here so those of us who are long time employees remember it happening. HR sent around a memo, new name, new pronouns. Everyone did (and does) the polite thing and uses the name and pronouns as instructed, but certainly at first there was a lot of angst amongst the men about this person using the men’s bathroom.

        Over the years, changes have happened. In fact male pattern baldness is happening – and yet, to my eye, she doesn’t really pass. Perhaps it’s just that I know the history (reading trans narratives in both directions, there’s a concern that plenty of people maybe pass okay but if it comes out that they are trans, then it’s “ah yes that explains this and that and the other thing, I can totally see that now” going on). No way I’m going to ask anyone else (such as newer employees) about it though.

      • Ethan Says:

        You are clearly missing the fact the “transgender” were introduced to more testosterone during pregnancy and develop the physical chemical and brains of male while accidentally having the body workings of a female.
        “just because some thinks they’re a bunny doesnt mean their a bunny”
        A hyperbole and has no true context. Humans are one species despite the gender. It’s like you are saying if a male bunny feels like they are a bunny. They are a goddamn bunny. If a defective bunny knows its a bunny it’s a bunny.

        In other context saying a Male brain and at one more point chemically male but with the physical defect of those to factors not matching during the process and knows it’s a male. then it’s a male with a defect that can be helped and diagnosed.

        If you chose to argue that idea then you are stating
        someone who is born without a leg isn’t human. because they are missing a leg they were supposed to have.
        Or a even more matched example a person with down syndrome (Sadly) to you isn’t a “rabbit” (a person) just because of a defect and even if they know they are but you will deny because they are not the normal by having an extra chromosome. So they will have to have their own species or gender. Because there is actually something physically different in the brain to make people who actually diagnosed as “trans” mixed in match up.

        Even if you don’t believe it have some tolerance or maybe you should go back to your logic class by using the most out of sense terms to describe what you feel is justified with no backing. It’s not about a human being a cat that isn’t in their coding or a defect but to me hell if they care as long as there happy but people who are diagnosed as trans aren’t mentally wrong their physical defect causes them much daily pain and confusion that is unnecessary. Many of them have to go under the knife along with people who also have defects that are physical to ease their life. You should at least be a logically enough to process that.
        ————————————————–

        I am “Female to” male I accept trans people. People who are medically that way. I was always male and these stereotypes are so dumb. I am fully seen as a male. “pass” and everything I don’t try to be female or male. I already know who I am. I always “passed” my voice was high before but other than that I was the one of toughest bravest guys you would know. having my own youtube channel no one ever guesses it their isnt nothing to guess. I am male. I dont hate females. I am not lesbian. I dont think males are better. I dont hate them. I just was born differently. Could you show respect to people who are actually have this issue where they are born with a different brain sex. I am not overly tough or anything I am very average good grades mixed group of friends. some people are in straight denial that i was ever a “female” It’s okay with me. I jsut because a person had cancer or has down syndrome doesnt mean they have to be ashamed of there past. I dont talk about it. My documents say male but I am not my gender . You and me are people and that’s what comes first. I am not a bad good person. i wish i was better at things but who doesn’t wish that for themselves I try hard. I am happy now. I don’t regret anything but i know some people will hate for that. I dont dress as a male. I am a male. I wear what I want. A guy can wear a skirt still be a guy. What makes you a transgender is being born with that defect. You can diagnosis this by either brain scan or physiologically. I am sorry for the people you dislike. I am not trying to hurt anyone i hope you’re happy because I am happy. Even if you or others might hate me for it. I agree the PERSON in the picture was really physically born with non matching sex of the brain and body then she wouldn’t be stereo typing Males like that but don’t let bad individual experiences hurt others. I am sorry if I offended you this is my scientific research and opinion.


    • I actually disagree.

      First off, I know from my own experience that feminist literature is not available in my local library.

      I think that feminism is severely underexposed in modern day culture. Women hear about women’s lib from the 1970’s in their history classes and nowhere else. The eager young woman looking to learn about feminism online, well, you try it.

      Google women’s rights and feminism. Google gender. Not only is mainstream feminist writing full of liberal, feel-good go-girl lipstick-is-feminist garbage, but the only resources they provide are to other superficial, funfem blogs. Many “feminists” today go without ever reading any feminist-literature, and if they do, 9 times out of 10 it was probably “Feminism is For Everyone.” And one of the big reasons for this is that they don’t know it’s out there.

      I actually only found out about the radical circles from some drama on Reddit about some MRA posting screenshots from some radical feminist forum. It was only after I learned the name of radfemhub that I started digging.

      And I didn’t even like it at first. I thought it was mean of people to refer to transgender males as men, because I thought, well, why shouldn’t we just be respectful?

      Yes, I am young and naive, I know.

      If I hadn’t been seriously questioning what the mainstream voices I was around were saying, I probably wouldn’t have come back to these blogs for some solace. But I did feel that dissonance. I did feel that something was very, very wrong with what the mainstream voices were saying about gender.

      But I am also very fortunate for that, because even that isn’t entirely of my own doing, but from educational experiences I just happened to have at school.

      The point of all this, really, is that the path toward radical feminism isn’t an easy one for young women who know feminism by term only. It is not just a matter of self-determination. A lot of it is being in the right place at the right time.

      I feel very sad when I read about FTMs, both lesbians and straight women. I suspect that, as for gay men, lesbians became transgender as a result of homophobia and invalidation of cross-gender behavior. I see non-FTM lesbians who are not comfortable with the term lesbian.

      For straight women, I don’t know if I think it’s about male privilege. I think that there is a part to it where they recognize that heterosexual relationships are very unequal in power, and they struggle with seeing themselves being in relationships with men. I know a woman who was in a relationship with an FTM who identified as a gay man (apparently not viewing their relationship as something for the long term). I suspect that there might be a pattern where non-lesbian FTMs are more willing to have sex with women as women or men as men than they are with men as women.

      Maybe these are just crackpot theories. They’re just ideas that have been floating around in my head.

      • moira Says:

        WOTP, I appreciate this response. In honor of this thread, I went to the library today to look for radical feminist books. I found one, and it had been defaced–literally branded as “hate literature,” with new pages pasted into it making pro-trans arguments.

        Also, those don’t sound like crackpot theories to me; they sound like very cogent analyses of the way many people use trans identity to try to escape dysfunctional power imbalances and/or stigma.

        You’re also correct that the path to radical feminism (or any other analysis that actually challenges the roots of the problem of misogyny) is not an easy one–almost the entirety of the dominant culture *and* the most visible subcultures are arrayed against it.

      • Adrian Says:

        Ah, Reddit… yeah, even if you find discussion of feminism there the stuff I’ve seen is usually extremely quick to make sure you know that they’re not those evil RADFEMS. So quick to point out that they don’t hate men, oh no, they realize that feminism is anti-men and feminists need to be careful and fight for men’s rights too! And yes, lipstick feminism and “sex positivity.”

        Posting “Men can fight for their own rights” is enough to get downvoted over there.

        Plus of course the evil radfems are known for “transphobia,” and while people over there are happy to poke holes in all the rest of the nuttiness on the internet such as “transethnicity,” they are pretty solidly in the pro-trans theory camp. The lady-brain thing is alive and well.

  20. Bev Jo Says:

    I just showed a friend the photo and caption, and she couldn’t stop laughing…

  21. moira Says:

    Also, trans is the new punk. Not entirely being facetious.

    • Interrobang Says:

      I’d agree with you except it’s not as transgressive as the original punk. I’m still trying to figure out how that young woman thinks she looks “dressed fully male.” (Red jeans?!) Is it maybe that her tank top has deep holes under the arms or something?

      I confess to being old (or at least well over “trustable” age by 1960s standards), but I just do not understand gender codings anymore. The fact that I just don’t seem to have a strong internal sense of “gender” myself probably doesn’t help. Trash the whole thing; it’s toxic.

      I look more masculine than that when I’m wearing a skirt, and I have big tits and longish hair, FFS.

      • Elizabeth Says:

        You should see the photo of me in jeans, T-shirt (sleeves rolled up) and workboots pointing a rifle (magazine removed, thank you) at the camera! I never even once considered that I was “dressing as a male.”

  22. Bev Jo Says:

    Moira, I don’t “smugly judge” or “mock” anyone. IBut I do react with anger when being oppressed, and I do recognize that woman as an oppressor. I also recognize who is being hurt and that is who I try to support. I see a serious undermining of basic feminism where those who are harming girls and women are being portrayed as victims and those who dare to talk about it are lectured and bullied.

    I have been fighting for girls and women since I first found Lesbian Feminism when I was a girl in 1970. I never stopped. If you wonder why you were not aware of me and my work, you should know about who is allowed to write and be published, and the systematic censorship of the most radical feminists that still continues. Classism is certainly a big part of that also.

    No matter how bad the dominant culture is now, it can never be as bad as when there were absolutely no positive images of Lesbians anywhere — no books, no films, etc. Now you can turn on the television and there are much-loved and out Lesbians. The book I co-wrote, “Dykes-Loving-Dykes,” has been in some libraries since 1990. There are also all the Lesbian Feminist books that did not exist when I was a young Lesbian with no support, also in libraries. For those of us living below the poverty line, who have been writing Lesbian Feminism and Radical Feminism for over forty years, we are blamed that we have not yet done enough or are not rich enough to be making our books more available?

    Why are you blaming those of us who have been threatened, and attacked and criticized and censored for decades, yet who have never stopped, for not having found us sooner? My first contact with older “Lesbians” when I was 14 was certainly not feminist or Lesbian-loving because of how bisexual-identified they were (and I’m assuming also influenced by gay and bisexual men.) I did not join them, and when I finally found home at 19 with a Lesbian Feminist community, I did not lecture or demand those older Lesbians about why they had not found me sooner and rescued me. I appreciated them for all the risks they took and for existing and surviving as who they were in this hetero-patriarchy which so hates Lesbians.

    I am one of the few who has written about the trans cult and about women saying they are men. How have I not addressed women “‘transitioning” in order to not become old women? I’ve written SPECIFICALLY about that at my blog. I am also one of the few Radical Feminists who has written about ageism. So why are you scapegoating me?

    I also recognize that girls and women make choices. Some of my closest friends who share all of my Radical Lesbian Feminist/Separatist politics are in their twenties. Some of them are completely isolated in other countries. How do you explain their existence other than that they think through the genderqueer and transcult cons, and recognize themselves as Lesbians, and feel committed to other Lesbians even when alone?

    I do not identify as “second wave” and refuse to believe we have a generation divide that the men so much want us to believe.

    This woman is not “gender nonconforming.” She looks completely feminine. I don’t believe that in whatever community she is in that she does not know Lesbians who are out and proud to be Lesbians. Of course there is a movement as well as individuals she is betraying. I have tried talking directly to some of these women-hating-women, but I would rather put my limited energy into the women who love women and who are not only more oppressed than this woman, but who are oppressed BY this woman.

    By referring to women like this — F2Ts — as “he” and “him,” you are supporting the trans cult and encouraging women to join. Just as with calling men “she” and “her,” you are giving them what they want and feeding the trans cult.

    • moira Says:

      Bev Jo,

      I certainly appreciate your point about why your work has not been made widely available. I don’t blame *you* for that in the least. My point here is not really about “what books exist in the world that may or may not be accessible” (and you know that what does exist is often out of print or not acquired because nobody cares enough or literally branded hate literature…) but more about “who are the people around us” which matters, often, far more. The only lesbians I knew or saw when I came out co-signed (or actually taught) queer po-mo theory. They were deferential or they bit their tongues and played along with trans politics. In fact this kind of stuff was my first introduction to anything “lesbian,” and I didn’t meet an openly opposing viewpoint for decades. Had I found lesbian feminists at 19 I am sure my whole life would be different.

      I’m glad you had the strength to persist and be true to yourself and be an advocate for girls and women with perfect integrity and consistence, according to values which you adopted as a 14-year-old child and never changed. I’m glad there are isolated 20-year-olds who have been able to build a woman-loving ethic in isolation, against all odds. That is truly exceptional. By definition of exceptional, that is not going to be the case for most of us, and that doesn’t make the rest of us oppressors.

      I totally support your intention to give your energy only to those young women who haven’t manifested their damage in this particular way–it’s your energy, your prerogative. I’m responding here to the fact that you’re calling girls like this one “oppressors” and putting forth an ideological stance that they’re the enemy. Yes, they make “choices,” if they can be called that when they’re made from the most compromised position imaginable. You know what “choice” means for girls and women in this culture.

      Also, on this thread you have in fact put energy into making fun of this teenager. You’re not alone in doing that, but as you point out, you’ve been leading this charge for a long time, and people may listen more when you do it. She makes you angry, you don’t want to give her your energy–I hear you. I’m more than happy to be the one to talk to her. But she isn’t likely to give me the chance in this kind of context.

      And yes, I’ve read your analysis on older women transitioning–and as I said, I respect that position more than what you’ve directed here at girls whose brains are probably not even done developing, with who knows what kinds of specific traumas and mental health problems, living in this culture.

      No one’s demanding that you rescue anyone–I’m trying to ask whether this space can be one that, instead of acting as a release valve to laugh at this girl, can be one where women like me, who know that girls like this are not the oppressor, can show her that there is an alternative. That space isn’t going to be possible if they’re being laughed at here instead, but I think that idea is more constructive than advocating a policy of cutting them out of the circle of humanity as oppressors.

      If this same person said tomorrow, “Hey; I get it; I’m a human female, and not any of these made up things. I’ve been sold a bill of goods and this whole thing was toxic,” I bet you’d welcome her the way I saw you do with the detransitioned woman who guest posted here. My aim is just to help her get there. You seem to think she ought to have the fortitude to do it alone and/or that it isn’t your problem. You can say it isn’t your problem, but as it’s highly unlikely she’ll get there in isolation, I want her to see this blog as a viable alternative.

      Also–this girl *is* gender nonconforming these days. That is a culture-bound thing, and the current rules are crazy. Girls who dress like this now are considered to be Doing It Wrong. Ellen may be on TV, but the world is pornified as never before.

      • Jaime Says:

        Moira,
        Although I’ve been a reader of this blog for almost a year now, I’ve remained silent and after reading your posts today I’ve been moved to post, myself. I just wanted to say thank you for your extremely thoughtful and empathetic statements. As someone who also bought into the trans ideology as a young person (beginning in 2005, for me, but a naive 17 years old at the time) and has since found my way out and subsequently found my way to radical feminism, I really appreciate your sentiments. I was a part of the trans “community” for years, identified as male, and took testosterone injections for eight months before starting to come to the realization that I was only hurting myself and all females by proxy with my actions, and I finally started to wake up. If I had heard this message of support from lesbian feminists such as yourself while I was young and mixed up in trans ideology I have no doubt that I would have begun questioning my “male identity” much, much sooner in my life. Thank you for attempting to reach out to this young woman, and for not giving up on her or forsaking her. Thank you for showing the utmost compassion for your fellow female. Since discovering radical feminism, I have attempted to reach out in a simliar manner to the young women closest to me in my life, especially the *many* of them that are either pursuing medical transition or cling to “gender queer” labels and completely eschew the idea of female or lesbian as a valid or acceptable identity. I have been met with nothing but resistance, but I push on, because I think the fight we are fighting is an important one. I am fortunate enough to have an amazing partner who supports me no matter what, and who has been invaluable in helping me grow fully into being a proud, butch female who doesn’t apologize for my presence or appearance anymore.
        Long story short, the type of acceptance and willingness to discuss these complex ideas that you are offering to this young woman is exactly what I think our youth community needs right now. This is not meant to demean or devalue the immensely important work that Bev Jo has been putting in for decades (and Bev Jo, I’ve read your work and been extremely moved, but at a time in my life when I was significantly more shy about voicing my opinions, so please take this note as a note of my appreciation for you as well), but merely to express my appreciation for the work that you are doing right now.
        Moira, you have renewed my fighting spirit and reminded me exactly why we’re all pushing to eradicate this gender nonsense. Thank you, again and again, from the bottom of my heart.

        With best wishes and eternal solidarity,
        Jaime

      • moira Says:

        Thank you, Jaime. I couldn’t come back for awhile because I needed an emotional break–it’s been hard to engage when I saw radical feminists (who I thought of as a welcome relief, representing hope and clear analysis) thinking any teenage girl has the structural power to be an “oppressor” of other girls/women in this society. But I’m glad I decided to take a deep breath and look back because your response is exactly the reason I was willing the speak up in the first place.

        Every young girl now has the potential to fall prey to this mindfuck–not only butch girls, not only lesbian girls, not only girls who have been raped, but every girl–and this is increasingly true as the phenomenon mainstreams. I name those experiences because I think they have most often been implicated in girls being vulnerable to trans identification thus far, but every girl grows up in a world that hates her and calls her body monstrous, and every girl is vulnerable to this socially-supported fantasy that she can explain her feelings (that she mistakenly thinks are hers alone) and escape further trauma by being “trans.” I care about them, and I see that calling them “oppressors” is equivalent to saying the same about “pro-ana” girls. (You know, they hurt us all by starving themselves, because they play into the idea that female bodies are weak and don’t deserve nourishment; in fact, they even kill women (themselves) a lot of the time, and encourage other girls to do the same, which is totally misogynistic. So let’s post photos of them with their bones sticking out that are labeled “i look fat,” and have a good laugh about their total disconnect from reality, and say that we’re supporting all women by doing so, and that anyone who would rather a different approach is also the enemy. /sarcasm)

        Jaime, I really wish we had a way to talk more. Want to try here? redressalert.tumblr.com

  23. IceMountainFire Says:

    Hi Moira,
    I may be one of the younger women who came to grow into Radical Lesbian feminism almost by themselves, and never happened to fall into that queer theory or even heterosexual behaviour. I am in my late twenties.

    I had very little (and often bad pseudo-) feminist literature in my own language and none at all in English. I had no Lesbian friends, no Lesbian community. But I still somehow came to instinctually develop Radical Lesbian feminism’s hallmarks by one single principle: Women before everyone else.

    Solidarity is almost a dirty word today, but that’s at the core of it. I don’t have to like any particular woman or agree with her, but there is a core solidarity with her.

    But this solidarity doesn’t mean that I have to accept any woman’s choices blindly. If a woman chooses to do something that harms us all, I call this oppressive behaviour out.

    And this is what happens here: The young girl engages in behaviour that is not only harmful to herself, but to all of us.

    There must be space in feminism for criticising other women or else we could just give up and adopt the liberal stance.

    • moira Says:

      Sure. Criticize this trend as harmful. The girl who falls prey to it is not “an oppressor.” There’s a difference. And it engenders a different approach when you can acknowledge the structural issues causing such behavior in other girls and women, even when you are appalled by the behavior. Side note, I wonder if queerlandia has now hit such a peak level of absurdity and overt misogyny that there will be more and more young women who don’t fall into its mindfuckery. I gotta say some of the 90s versions look wholesome by comparison.

      • IceMountainFire Says:

        How can she not be oppressive when she obviously despises being female so much?

        It is Misogyny against herself – but misogyny all the same.

      • Versa Says:

        Amen.

        How is it not misogyny to seek destruction of femaleness, even one’s own?

      • Bruce Lilly Says:

        @ IceMountain

        In order to be oppressive this young woman must exercise authority or power. Yes she is misogynistic but since she has no power over women as a class – she is not an oppressor.

      • Versa Says:

        She chooses to reject femaleness, making a proclamation of this rejection, and thereby contributes to the idea that femaleness is undesirable and inferior. This is an insidious attitude that is harmful to girls and women.

        I’d say she is oppressing us.

      • moira Says:

        Yes, it’s misogyny–the internalized kind. We all have it. Yours manifests differently, thank goodness. We can have a movement based on ranking whose manifestation is best and who is the most “pure” and say that only they are worthy, or we can point out the egregious harms of this way of being and still understand that the girl or woman doing it is one of us, and that for some of us, it is important to make space for them to see another way. I think the second option represents a better chance for more of us to become free of the more egregious forms of internalized misogyny, of which this is certainly one.

      • GallusMag Says:

        @moira- Agree.

  24. Bev Jo Says:

    Moira,

    I’ve been a Lesbian, in love with other females, since my earliest memories, and growing up completely alone in that. It was at 14 that I finally found that the older girl who I had been in love with since 5 had become a Lesbian, but was with bisexual male-identified women and their “community” was the equivalent of genderqueer/sado-masochist in their female-hating. I just could not bear it. I preferred being alone and to keep searching. It was not an intellectual decision. From my working class background, and parents’ poverty class culture, I didn’t even know how to have a real conversation. It was just knowing something was very wrong.

    What I’m saying is that just knowing men can’t be women and women can’t be men does not have to take privilege or even support. You just look at them. You watch the men acting and sounding nothing like women, but acting exactly like men in their despising of women, groping women, insistence on sexual obedience, etc.

    That woman made a video, showing herself off, bragging about how she dressed fully male. Of course some of us here laughed at that video. SHE IS OPPRESSING US. She is too good to be a woman and in her narcissistic delusion, actually thinks she looks male. I would not laugh to her face, any more than I did with the privileged little snob who also looked completely feminine and told us to address her as “he” and “him” in order to separate from us and get more privilege. Of course I would explain what is wrong with her choices and politics if she spoke with me. But as I said, these women usually treat me like dirt and refuse to even make eye contact. (And no, I do not agree she is “gender non-conforming” at all. There are many girls and women who look a lot less male-identified feminine, including in the media. No Butches, but still, other women, including one who just almost one a U.S. television singing contest where a big fuss was made about her trousers, sneakers and buttoned up collars, as opposed to the usual high heeled stilts and breast implants.)

    I refuse to participate in believing the dilution of feminism line that when a woman is oppressive to other women, she is “manifesting damage.” That is extremely anti-political and anti-feminist. The logical extreme is the con of feeling sorry for abusive men, whether they insist we accept them as women or they are raping women — the line being that they must be “damaged.”

    You see damage. I see a grab for privilege and contempt for other women. I will not excuse betrayal. That excusing is hurting us individually and harming our movement. Isn’t that what this wonderful blog is all about? Those of us harmed by the trans cult sharing support against those oppressing us? (Of course I feel differently about women trans cult members, but still, I will not participate in feeling sorry for them.)

    I DO show her and the others an alternative. I write information they can read. I exist as an out Lesbian who is daily choosing to say no to men and to male-identified femininity. When there is an opportunity, I talk with them. But we need this space. The trans cult has taken away every women-only space and possible safe space we have. In my own community, there is no escape from them. Of course she and others can read this blog and my blog also. And if they write to us, we can respond. But seriously, how much time do some of us have left? I try to spend it with women with the courage and caring to not despise me and other women, and who do want to share support, and not just take. (Are you not aware that she has friends and possibly a lover who are feeling very personally betrayed and hurt by her? I have certainly seen that in my community.)

    The mystery to me is why you are so defending of them and so critical of those they are oppressing? And why do you feel sorry for them and not those they are oppressing?

    IceMountainFire said it perfectly.

    I’m curious who you are since you know who I am.

    • moira Says:

      I respect much of what you’ve said here, Bev Jo, but I think our experiences are so different it may be difficult to communicate across them, particularly online. I do see Gallus’ blog as a place where those of us harmed by the trans cult can talk. I just think this girl is “those of us being harmed by the trans cult,” and want it to be able to serve as a way out for her. I say that because I’ve seen it from inside. Calling this a manifestation of damage is not anti-political in the least; it’s a different politics to yours, informed by a different perspective. I don’t know what you mean by saying I’m “so defending of them and so critical of those they are oppressing,” but I’m fine to leave it here. I can see we aren’t getting closer to an understanding.

  25. Bev Jo Says:

    Thank you, Jaime. Thinking about the differences in the women who are “transitioning” or wanting to be male is so important. There are those who say they want “better jobs and more chicks,” and those who say they don’t want to be an “old woman.” And then there are those, like a friend who says, “I just don’t want to be raped any more.” She was one of the few who is Butch, though that is the stereotype of F2Ts.

    It’s disturbing to me that there seems in some circles far more support for feminine women who are saying they are men than for Butches who are not identifying as male in any way. The harassment of Butches by some liberal feminists who clearly want us gone or to not exist, includes female-hating insults and being said not to exist (as Gallus Mag so eloquently wrote about and responded to a few months ago.) Butches without support are likely to describe themselves as male or “masculine,” when I believe we are closest to what all females would be without patriarchy. There is a reason we are banned from both patriarchal and Lesbian media. So where is the outrage at that, and concern for the young Butches who end up wanting to transition to male after being told constantly that they are male? If there was more support, many might see another option.

  26. Bev Jo Says:

    There is an underminding movement that describes itself as Radical Feminist, but which dilutes and dismantles basic feminist principles. A key phrase used is “women as a class,” and follows with statements about how women cannot oppress other women. If questioned, it basically leads to the myth that we all have equal power under patriarchy, except that perhaps the most privileged are really the most oppessed, but that they just don’t know it. In this dismantling of feminism, racism and classism and heterosexims, don’t exist among women, and neither do ableism and ageism. It leads to a segregated right wing feminism, which is the last thing we need. It crushes discussion of our diverse cultures and experiences, so what is represented in the most privileged cultures among women.

    We dealt with this over forty years ago, but like the trans resurgence, here it is again. It leads to mind-numbing condemnation of political feminist discussion. If you dare to say what is obvious in front of you, you are reprimanded or banned.

    Look at the beginning responses to this post with the outrage, anger, and some protective humor. Yes, it is ridiculous for a woman still clinging so strongly to male-identified femininity to declare she is looking fully male. If we don’t respond with some humor, shall we go towards depressed or suicidal? Or rush out to reach this woman, making her more important than the women who are identifying as women and feminists who do need our support?

    Yes, she is oppressive and oppressing us. I hate to think how she is treating young Lesbians and young women saying no to men and het sex, even worse, young Butches. (The F2Ts tend to express even more contempt and hatred towards Butches.) If anyone thinks women like this have no power, they should talk to the women who are self-mutilating and suicidal after being ostracized for not spouting the trans cult line. Those who say they have no power to hurt must be in an entirely separate world. It’s like those who say we have no real power differences in terms of class and then don’t respond when I describe specifics like one “feminist” hiring another to clean her toilet, or having the power to fire and evict. Survival and humilation are not only theory.

    At the group where I asked the young woman if she was a Lesbian and she patronizing said she was “genderqueer” and used male pronouns, she was oppressing me. She already had more privilege in terms of class and age, but this was another separating me into a category that was beneath her. She basically ignored me after that, and I could not miss how reverential the man referred to her.

    These women’s betrayal of women pays off for them. Perhaps they will change. Most likely they will go in the direction of Pat Califia and Loren Cameron, being het/bisexual women, some of who are chasing gay men.

    Either way, why are we to accept her as victim at our expense? Why is she more important than women who love women enough to identify as women?

    Don’t forget her very identification puts her in the trans cult, supporting the men who are trying to destroy our movement.

    • Em Says:

      One other thing: Her identification, and that of others like her, is useful to m2t, who use the rising numbers of f2t to argue that “being born in the wrong body” is not a condition unique to male fetishists but is in fact a rather routine occurrence in nature.

      It’s of a piece with the use of “trans” children to argue that transsexualism isn’t sexually-driven.

      • Versa Says:

        Aren’t there vastly more M2T than F2Ts, though? That’s my understanding, although I can’t cite sources or numbers off the top of my head.

        M2Ts can be explained by fetishes. F2Ts can be explained by patriarchal oppression. Heck, there was a time in my childhood when I briefly wished to be a boy because they seemed to have more freedom and were more associated with the things that I liked (e.g. physical activity outdoors as opposed to Barbies and tea parties).

        But that’s all it was. I had no innate objections to my biology. It was nothing more than a result of living in a sexist world. I put that desire behind me and am now quite proud to be a woman.

        Instead of wanting to abandon the oppressed class I belonged to, I sought to live a life that proved the oppressors wrong in their judgment of my class. And so I have done. Sadly, many females (such as the subject of this thread) lack my strong will, and they give in. 😦

  27. Bev Jo Says:

    I just got a notice from an activist group asking me to write to our California governer to support that horrible bill that would wipe out female-only restrooms, locker rooms, etc. at schools. Of course they don’t say that or focus on that it is prurient males who will be given access to girls (and sooner or later, no matter how careful the men posing as women are, they end up groping women in public or otherwise asserting their male domination).

    Instead they present the sad story of a high school freshman who had to quit gym classes because “he” (a girl) was not given access to “his” appropriate locker rooms. Besides the fact that why would any teenaged girl feel safe in a locker room with males, it’s so dishonest to focus on the much fewer F2Ts. Every part of the letter was dishonest, but since it’s presented as getting more rights for the fantasy “LGBT” etc. community, they will get a lot of mindless support. And then it really will be girls who can’t bear being naked in front of boys and who will quit access to physical education. This law will limit girls’ lives tremendously, plus exposing them to harassment and sexual assault.

    So, yes, girls like this one posing as male so pretentiously are having a serious and terrible effect on other girls and on the few laws left that protect females.

    • moira Says:

      I agree about the bill–I just wrote to the governor about what a bad idea it is and gave my letter to others as a sample. Also, high school freshwomen are usually 13 or 14–this kid’s parents probably have Munchausen’s by internet. Adults are using her.

  28. kmiriam Says:

    Moira, thank you for your comments–they are among the most nuanced in the name of radical feminism that I’ve yet to encounter on the trans issue especially. Your empathic approach, and sense of complexity about the issues here–e.g historical context, the political, and literary (thinking feminist literature) void into which young women “come out”– is really impressive. We need to get out of a polarizing approach and find means for dialogue especially with young women who transition–firm stances on the predatory MtFs not withstanding. I’d love to be in touch. find my blog Dialectical Spin at kmiriam@wordpress.com

    • Motherhood Says:

      Oy Moria sweetie, I am late getting to this discussion. We had a tornado, no power. I wish you did not feel that way or if you do to still keep talking. Experience is only one thing, and what you do bigger. The problem is we like to hold on to experience because it feeds into “identity.” And we imagine we can, to some extent construct that. Po Mo bull that I find that a very problematic notion by which I mean it will screw women over. The bottom line is if a person is born female in the 1st world Trans culture hurts and damages all females. How and to what extent differs by degrees and at some point or a certain age women have to pony up and say—taking responsibility. I can tell you. I am not a lesbian (and I do not consider myself some mealy mouth heterosexual women that has to apologize or qualify that in order to tread on to the ground of lesbians’ because really we are all in the same boat and it is a delusion to think otherwise. And that delusion is either born out a sense of arrogance or a sense of fear—neither serve good judgment , IMHO) and although I raised in the culture many years ago I booked my ass so fast outta there heads swam. I married young and never touched a feminist text–I mean really the last thing I saw was the first edition of Our Bodies Ourselves. And a few pregnancies, if they teach you nothing else, they teach you: it aint your body, not by a long shot. And what I realized was all those lesbian feminists of my childhood–they lied and had no idea, and were all just blowing smoke out their asses, sorta. Anyway it is a good thing I like kids. In my culture your body is occupied territory from 17 until 45. And that little slice of reality was something the Van Dykes et al neglected to mention. But they never like me and to be honest the feeling was mutual–too much drama.
      For me analysis comes through intuition first “danger Will Robinson.” Then, not really having ever been schooled in much I can put it together very slowly. A daughter of mine is taking a class at a college–feminism. I glanced at the book and her notes. Yes it used words like patriarchy and intersectionality but these terms are taught not as a means to critical analysis (which would be real feminism) but as a means to shore up the already empowered position. And I know I did not say that right. I have come to the conclusion that much of what we consider Political Correctness is in fact a sleight of hand–here, feel good you are a nice person with just ideals toward others. And at the same time if you happen to be female–you are being screwed. And this comes from the left as well as the right. An odd example is a very under reported medical condition that affects women who have more than six pregnancies. It is a kind of incontinence. Now a generation ago it was not at a 30% rate for women over 30–now it is. Why. Because I suspect the kind, the good, and the liberal feminists OBGYNs are conflicted about women who have 17 children. That is not cool in this culture. So maybe they let the labor go hard for a minute or two too long. Well multiply that by 5 more labors. I can find no real reporting of this. I even brought it to the attention of several hospitals attached to Universities that deal frequently with this population–oh yes they said that happens. Well no, it happens now. I can present women who have 14 kids and are fine but 5 of their daughters are incontinent before 30. I trust my instincts.
      Now in my own illogical uncritical manner of discourse I will tell you a story that did not make a bit of sense to me until very recently.And then it hit me like a ton of bricks. My mother bless her bull dyke heart and memory was a terrible mother and I mean horrific. And this was the 60’s–The Village, drugs and every harebrained idea you could imagine. Not an environment for children. My mother was also brilliant and I mean that–a brilliant crazy bitch. She also had poor judgment but she was young. When I was very little she told me a story and she would tell it over and over and it gave me nightmares. It was about Kitty Genovese, a woman who was murdered and a whole apartment building heard her scream for help and nobody came. After I became a young mother I was all full of blowing wand bubbles and keeping bunnies, hatching butterflies. For a couple of decades I could not imagine what the fuck kind of insanity and cruelty and poor judgment possessed my own mother to ever tell that story to a child. I chalked it up to her bad motherness. I was wrong. It was her brilliance. That terror stayed with me, it did not always protect me but I realize it was a gift, a statement, a lesson–she was saying, no bullshit women will scream and die and nobody will come.
      And she was right then and she is still right. There is no such thing as “non gender conforming” wtf does that mean? You eat with your fingers, you don’t extend a pinky`. The world is not a mirror for each of us to be reflected. The girl’s behavior is narcissistic and narcissism is deadly. The second you imagine that how you “present” has meaning—kiss you ass good-bye. You have drowned in the reflection. The closet is a little bit of a myth too. It has expanded and contracted at different points in time. And now as a myth serves a political purpose. I can promise you there were lesbians on the Prairie, on the steps of Siberia. And people where not stupid or uniformly cruel and hateful. Imagining that is more narcissism that allows us to feel better today. You see identity is just a manipulation like experience—it gives people credibility that they may or may not deserve. And then it screws them over and they don’t even know it.
      Bev Jo is right and why should she “dress it up. Let’s put shit in perspective—this girl is acting like a fricken cupie doll. Girls her age are pushing out babies in huts, sometimes their father’s babies. Pity is a limited resource. And pity is worthless because it is a manipulation and women with all the pity are on the loosing end. These young women need to snapped back to reality—this shit is not gonna age well at all. Making fun of this kid I do not find the worlds worst offense—she is a joke and people laugh. This mealy mouthed warm and fuzzy is not compassion it is not insight it is not understanding or even acceptance it is narcissism. My kid goes running into traffic I grab them and slap them—period. I saved their life. And maybe later I will laugh at the shocked look on their face.
      Moria, start screaming please. Stop understanding, stop identifying with, just stop—scream. This shit is a killer. Boy I hope GM is not mad at me for being so sloppy and uncritical and taking up so much space. (aw don’t be mad, she said with with big soupy eyes)

  29. Liza Says:

    Thank you, Moira, for being smart AND kind. The world needs more voices like yours. We can hold our ground and still act with compassion.

  30. Chelsea Dreher Says:

    What wonderful comments from lesbian feminists of different generations! I have compassion for the younger women who had no movement to turn to, since that was not available to me until 1970. I lived in loneliness and confusion until women who had somehow organized themselves into groups through reading and conciousness raising came along and I was able to hop onto their backs (so to speak). We, for a variety of reasons, are no longer a cohesive and viable group.
    Bev Jo speaks for my generation, and Moira gives me a window into hers. And both are brilliant.
    The trans issue seems to have sidetracked any possibility of moving on without getting bogged down by it. Wishing it would go away is ridiculous. Especially since many Lesbian Feminists are sympathetic to or supportive of it.(another division among friends) Arguing, I have found, does no good. How will this,if ever, be resolved? This seems to be the number one question in my mind.That, and how to avoid spending so much energy and time when a movement of young LFs could be growing.

    • Bruce Lilly Says:

      Well I guess it can only be resolved if people (especially women) wake up and see how dangerous and anti female the trans movement really is. Over two years I witnessed an increase of people who did this. So there is hope indeed. Also the trans movement – with all their misogyny, hate and violence is responsible for this. Even if it’s not their intention. The more hateful they are the more people will wake up.

  31. margeaux Says:

    Maybe acne is the sign of manliness.

  32. Bev Jo Says:

    There ARE many young Radical Lesbian Feminists though, even if they are bravely alone, as is IceMountainFire. It is important to remember that we do not necessarily have a generation divide.

  33. jose Says:

    Perhaps she’s a transwoman trapped inside the body of a woman, so she’s transitioning from being a dreadful “cis person” (ugh, who even likes those) into a fully-fleshed trans woman, maleness and everything.

  34. JR Says:

    What a cute girl🙂

  35. Jo Says:

    This was me in high school, except the pants were brown cords, the shirts were men’s henleys, and the label was “tomboy.”

    I wasn’t even remotely radical at the time, either. But, by degrees, I’ve gone from insecure young liberal to generally-not-caring radical feminist.

  36. Brian Says:

    99% of the people on this blog deserve the worst kind of cancer.
    You feminazi are crazy bitches.
    Oh, and being a dude that was born as a dude (i.e. I have the kind of penis you whores ‘won’t’ fuck), wide hips have nothing to do with gender.
    You elementary school dropouts are cowaii deshoe.


  37. […] example for this rationale is this discussion: https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/first-time-dressing-fully-male-ftm/#comment-23213 My post here is NOT intended to be an attack on the (excellent) blog the discussion took place at, […]

  38. Ethan Says:

    You are clearly missing the fact the “transgender” were introduced to more testosterone during pregnancy and develop the physical chemical and brains of male while accidentally having the body workings of a female.
    “just because some thinks they’re a bunny doesnt mean their a bunny”
    A hyperbole and has no true context. Humans are one species despite the gender. It’s like you are saying if a male bunny feels like they are a bunny. They are a goddamn bunny. If a defective bunny knows its a bunny it’s a bunny.

    In other context saying a Male brain and at one more point chemically male but with the physical defect of those to factors not matching during the process and knows it’s a male. then it’s a male with a defect that can be helped and diagnosed.

    If you chose to argue that idea then you are stating
    someone who is born without a leg isn’t human. because they are missing a leg they were supposed to have.
    Or a even more matched example a person with down syndrome (Sadly) to you isn’t a “rabbit” (a person) just because of a defect and even if they know they are but you will deny because they are not the normal by having an extra chromosome. So they will have to have their own species or gender. Because there is actually something physically different in the brain to make people who actually diagnosed as “trans” mixed in match up.

    Even if you don’t believe it have some tolerance or maybe you should go back to your logic class by using the most out of sense terms to describe what you feel is justified with no backing. It’s not about a human being a cat that isn’t in their coding or a defect but to me hell if they care as long as there happy but people who are diagnosed as trans aren’t mentally wrong their physical defect causes them much daily pain and confusion that is unnecessary. Many of them have to go under the knife along with people who also have defects that are physical to ease their life. You should at least be a logically enough to process that.
    ————————————————–

    I am “Female to” male I accept trans people. People who are medically that way. I was always male and these stereotypes are so dumb. I am fully seen as a male. “pass” and everything I don’t try to be female or male. I already know who I am. I always “passed” my voice was high before but other than that I was the one of toughest bravest guys you would know. having my own youtube channel no one ever guesses it their isnt nothing to guess. I am male. I dont hate females. I am not lesbian. I dont think males are better. I dont hate them. I just was born differently. Could you show respect to people who are actually have this issue where they are born with a different brain sex. I am not overly tough or anything I am very average good grades mixed group of friends. some people are in straight denial that i was ever a “female” It’s okay with me. I jsut because a person had cancer or has down syndrome doesnt mean they have to be ashamed of there past. I dont talk about it. My documents say male but I am not my gender . You and me are people and that’s what comes first. I am not a bad good person. i wish i was better at things but who doesn’t wish that for themselves I try hard. I am happy now. I don’t regret anything but i know some people will hate for that. I dont dress as a male. I am a male. I wear what I want. A guy can wear a skirt still be a guy. What makes you a transgender is being born with that defect. You can diagnosis this by either brain scan or physiologically. I am sorry for the people you dislike. I am not trying to hurt anyone i hope you’re happy because I am happy. Even if you or others might hate me for it. I agree the PERSON in the picture was really physically born with non matching sex of the brain and body then she wouldn’t be stereo typing Males like that but don’t let bad individual experiences hurt others. I am sorry if I offended you this is my scientific research and opinion.

    • GallusMag Says:

      You haven’t offended me with your imaginary “scientific research and opinion”. You express the typical profound sexism and self-hatred of the F2T. Nothing new or interesting here.
      I guess I should also reflect back to you that you exhibit a variation in communication often called “flight of ideas”, seen typically with schizophrenia or other profound thought disorder. You might want to look into that, in order to better be able to communicate with others and have a more rewarding life. Best of luck and Take care.

      • Ethan Says:

        Oh geez. You are ignorant and desperate to cling to any sense of you idea that you are stuck on. I was check out as a perfectly normal male physically, mentally and emotional. You have no claim or any supporting facts. I don’t “Selfhate” where the heck did you get that Idea I am perfectly happy and I am not sexist. I don’t really care for those things. People are people. How about you do some research. It is actually proven by medical science people are born the wrong gender.You are clearly missing the fact the “transgender” were introduced to more testosterone during pregnancy and develop the physical chemical and brains of male while accidentally having the body workings of a female. May theories out there and facts on human behavior and medical science work together. I think you might have Schizophrenia to the fact you clinging desperately to something with nothing to say just out of fear. My life is as rewarding as it can be. I am so happy for the life I have and the people i get to see everyday.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Good. Take care now. Goodbye.

      • born free & female Says:

        “It is actually proven by medical science people are born the wrong gender.”

        Odd how this “proof” has never appeared in a scientific paper – we just keep being assured it exists.

      • farishcunning Says:

        “Ethan”, I have to agree with Gallus wrt flight of ideas evident in your writing. Alternatively, could it be that English is not your first language?

        Be careful about what you read on tranny blogs and websites. Just because they print garbage about “being flooded with testosterone in utero” doesn’t make it so.

        I, too, am often mistaken for male, but that doesn’t make me one. I’m female, as are you–no matter how you cut your hair, what clothes you wear, or how you abuse your body. May you find peace with that fact.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Same illiterate bullshit, different day, I see.

        “Ethan”, there is no definitive scientific proof of what you claim. Repeating a lie over and over does not make it any truer. And yeah, I agree with Gallus – you sound like you’re off your meds. You know, a lot of pharmacies nowadays offer auto-refills, so you don’t have to worry about forgetting to call and running out of whatever would enable you to write a coherent paragraph. You should totally look into that! Best of luck!

    • Teal Deer Says:

      No one here says trans aren’t people or humans. Just want to clear that nonsense up.

    • Motherhood Says:

      Yep they got science, special variety that rings as true and valid as the elephant man’s mother was frightened by an elephant when she was carrying him and that’s why he grew into a “the elephant man” Flash forward a few years–the howls erupt from the crowd–“we were tricked and used and taken advantage of . . . it was a lie, they lied to us.” You think they play for pity now–just wait till the cries are legitimate.

    • Adrian Says:

      …because you can’t be “tough and brave” as a woman, amirite?

      I don’t see how on earth people pushing the trans narrative can go around claiming that they are open-minded and tolerant when it is THEY who are claiming that there is some “woman brain” vs. “man brain.” THAT is the intolerant bit.

      In order for you to have what you like to call a “physical defect” that means you are claiming that there is something particular to a “woman’s brain” which only you are special enough not to have.

      That’s offensive.

      I reject the idea that there’s any particular “proper matching” relationship of genitalia to thought processes. Any combination is a valid human combination.

      If someone has dysphoria about their genitalia and decides to have surgery on them, well, it’s a free country but I don’t think it’s anything to do with “born in the wrong body” type physical notions.

      So have you had the brain scan?

      Just a gender non-conforming woman here. I’m not going to go around persecuting you, or anyone else, I don’t hate you either, but if the topic comes up (as it does here) I will admit I don’t believe in the “gendered brain” stuff. To be fair though, not buying the current “born in the wrong body because hormones!” narrative is enough to get people labeled as haters or worse in plenty of places, so this definitely goes both ways.


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