GenderTrender Unmoderated

September 30, 2013

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ALL comments to this post (except pornography, threats of violence, doxxing) will be approved. The intended topic of discussion is:

 

What would it take to resolve the great divide between the practice of genderism (“Transgender”) and the liberation of women (“Feminism”) ?

 

Go.

482 Responses to “GenderTrender Unmoderated”

  1. GallusMag Says:

    Have at it, haters! Speak now or forever hold your peace.🙂

  2. RedHester Says:

    wow. such a powerful question. my first thought would be that the answer is LOVE. it is only the power of love that will allow both factions (i am a proud radfem, btw) to acknowledge the deep wounding that they both experience.

    men are also deeply harmed by the patriarchy. by supporting the myth of their own supremacy, and creating/upholding a system that benefits them at the expense of all living things, men destroy their own humanity and live in violation of the law of interdependence. we are all one, and any attempt to interfere with the living law will be deadly. men realize the depths of their sickness and are increasingly terrified to face the consequences of their depravity. but, still being human, they understand that their position is indefensible and increasingly vulnerable. by thousands of years of genocide and warfare against women/girls and life itself, men have unwittingly bred their defeat. for any resistance strengthens the resisting body. resulting in a sex class that is now superior in strength.

    women must now choose love. or risk the slow spiritual death that we see men writhing in pain with, before our eyes. we are at our most powerful. this is a time of intense danger. for we hold the fate of humanity in our hands. we must choose love, and turn away from the violence that is the illusion of individuality. this is the lie that felled men and all humankind for millennia. we must seize this moment and uphold the law. which is love. women must renounce the pursuit of power that is the root of all evil. women must dismantle the system that has given us death and doom. love and non-violence must be the ways that women teach the world. there is a powerful sickness in our human lands. love is the only antidote. violence is death. it only makes more of itself.

    in short: our shared suffering is the common ground we seek. healing and returning to love is upholding the law. which is love. we can acknowledge the truth of our suffering. however odious that may be to receive. we must renounce aggression. we must refuse any impulse to wound because we are wounded. it is our suffering, that is our salvation. we must wail in agony as a profane chorus. screaming until we can no more. we must make ourselves heard. long and clearly enough that we hear each other’s pain.


    • I am literally moved to tears reading this. Shear ‘F’ ing genius. You can never hate or dominate your way out of hatred and domination (a lesson the trans community would be forever transformed by learning.)

      So I apologize for the hubris and pointed self interest displayed by the trans community as a whole (in fact I don’t and can’t speak for the trans community, but as a trans person I think its vitally important to take responsibility for the world in which I’m a part.) These are known primate behaviors, but we all need to rise above our lowest common apish urges if we are to have any shot at a future as a viable species. Along those lines I’d love to share this peek into the gears and levers of Patriarchy; http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/a-glimpse-into-a-world-where-females-and-non-alpha-males-are-the-socially-dominant-genders/
      Its just one more reason that I see Patriarchy as bankrupt and fundamentally anti-humanist.

      I truly believe LOVE is the answer. We need to find our common ground (and we have so much in common) and build consensus based on mutual respect and a commitment to promoting the dignity of all people (including freeing the male mind from the shackles of Patriarchy.) Men are so addicted to domination, that the idea of equality sounds like slavery. In fact the conversation needs to be rooted in the true liberation of the human spirit. By design the master can be no more free than his slaves. We also need to transform belief systems that enforce slavery.

      Please be careful about painting an entire community with a single brush. The Trans Community has become a gender queer catch-all including everything from drag queens to gender fetishes of every shape and style to tranvestites. The Transsexual has become a tiny minority in this catch-all. More over, the vast number of transsexuals more than a few years in transition, have vanished into their various communities and most are invisible (I don’t even know if people transition anymore.) The vast majority of us have vastly more mundane concerns, and have lasting personal experience of harm done by Patriarchy. The only privilege I’ve ever known was the privilege to being enlightened that someone unable to conform to gender norms would be lucky to reach adulthood.

      The loudest members of the current trans community are most often newbies and these newbies are still one foot in each world and in the middle of loud and boisterous second puberties. This isn’t a justification for rudeness or emotional violence, it is useful information to let you know, just as you would refrain from getting into a pissing contest with a rude 14 year old, some of the minds you are facing are no less in the middle of wild hormonal flux. Wasting precious time and energy confronting pubescent assholery may not be the best use of limited emotional resources. There may be far greater power in promoting necessary women’s autonomy and safe space, and even inviting older transwomen who get it, to stand between y’all and the larger trans community to make the point. It at least takes the heat of the RadFem community while assuring your message is being shared.

      Thanks GM, for the opportunity to share and I hope begin dialog that makes possible positive futures for both our respective communities in mutual support and respect.


    • I really could not agree with this statement more, it’s beautiful.

      • K Says:

        you want more of it? you could go to the new agey mother-goddess western-spiritualism types if you want. it just sounds like your typical western/white people culturally appropriated bullshit to me. don’t wanna risk that slow spiritual death though! wail and scream in agony as long as you like.

        I’m really interested in what it will achieve. I’m serious.

  3. darliegoddess Says:

    I find it amusing that after months of intolerance, censorship , hatred, misgendering, stereotyping and accusations against transgender people that you would do this. It’s like the KKK opening their doors to the “n*****rs” and expecting them to suddenly trust you. You aren’t opening the doors to haters, you are opening doors to your victims! All we wonder is what you jihadist’s will do next.

    • Bruce Lilly Says:

      N******rs? God dude you are a fucking piece of shit. Go play with your dick and leave women alone if you aren’t able to discuss like a normal adult.

    • Motherhood Says:

      There is no intolerance here. You are mistaking women stating that you are male, which is a fact for intolerance. The word male and man are not hate speech. Saying, you are male is not hate speech. We do not have to fulfill your wishes, your desires or your perceptions. We do have to role play for you. The fact that you even imagine we should speaks to your male hatred of women and your male entitlement and privilege. We are free human beings and we owe you nothing. You imagine you can shame us. That dog don’t hunt in these woods. You can’t any more than any other man can–you are nothing special and nothing will change that. Your names “jihadist: just make you sound unhinged, manipulative and desperate. It is boring already. I know we cause you to be murdered, or commit suicide–please really don’t even start with the bullshit. It may play well with the dudes but save it. The truth is most people don’t believe you. They don’t pity you. If anything because of the high rate of violence they fear you because you threaten and lie. What we will do next. That’s simple we do many things–contact representatives, meet and speak with others .Give them stats and we will keep doing it. You can play that victim civil rights crap but the rape and murder rate for women murdered and raped by men “who feel like women” is staggering. So enjoy . You guys can’t keep your shit together long enough to not be violent.

    • darliegoddess Says:

      You know Phallus, its really funny you hiding, calling other people men ! Lol!


    • Hi Hon.

      I have a question. Someone who you’ve been struggling with for some time, opens the front door, and gives you a free shot to do something responsible and possibly constructive. And all you can come up with is to take a dump on the living-room floor?

      I appreciate grudges, anger and justifications for torches and pitchforks. None of these things make any difference. There are struggles being waged in the world as much as 3,000 years old. Is that what you aspire to? Lasting hatred? Or is there a possibility for forgiveness. Finding common experience and cause. Building respect and consensus, and finding ways to support and empower one another. Making a difference and maybe standing for a better world for each and every one of us?

      Or we can just kill one another until hell freezes over.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        LOL! Do you really think this is about being constructive ?! REALLY ?! Jews trying to make peace with Hitler ( sorry but it fits too perfectly)? ! You are here for their LULZ and nothing more!

        Personally I could care less about their “women’s spaces” , they aren’t women to me , never will be. They can wash down the stages of the “womyns festivals ” with all the male testosterone they can spew. YAWN! RadMen are just looking for a victim to rally the troops around like the Nazis did. A common enemy. YOU!

        Men through history have victimized women and theses dudes are no different. They are so jealous of men they have turned their fanatic hate towards them in any form they can. It’s not that you are a man , its that you once were and you are in the weakest most vulnerable state of transition. You are easy prey for these guys.

        You are a minnow dancing on the sharks teeth thinking you will be friends. Sorry to wake you up but anyone this emotionally damaged is never going to coo-perate with you, ever.


      • Sweetheart, I appreciate you’re angry, frustrated and feel you’ve been treated poorly. I’ve been active in the gender community since 1989. Had SRS in 1994. Have been an active participant in the Santa Cruz Mountain women since then and have a wide community of women I love dearly (some of whom are RadFem) and with whom I have rich and healthy relationships with. The problem is that there is an inflammatory history leading back all the way to places like MWMF, and all you see is the tip of a angry and fulminating iceberg.

        That’s why I say bring peace. Bring love. Bring healing. These women haven’t suggested gas chambers, they have questioned our claims and our anger and venom make more than a few of their questions valid. Someone needs to grow up and demonstrate acceptance and compassion. If you can’t bring better to the party, then you should sit it out. Be the change you want to see.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      “Darlie,” I think your posts need more hyperbole. (Like cowbell!)

    • Nixon Says:

      “Jews trying to make peace with Hitler”? As a Jewish person, that is disgusting and borderline abusive. How dare you? When did a feminist kill 6 million trans people? OR ANY TRANS PEOPLE? EVER!? Women don’t kill trans people, MEN do. Know your enemy.

  4. mieprowan Says:

    Less of a solution than a stopgap measure: recognize that other cultures have more than two gender castes, for the lack of a better term, and that there are men in this one who clearly have huge issues with being men; and recognize a second male gender caste (NOT a third sex). I don’t know how this caste would be handled societally, but it’s not unprecedented. If a second male gender caste was not perceived to be female, that would interfere with appropriation of female-allocated resources. But it would give M2T’s their own unique identity.

    This is what people are doing when they try to appropriate “two-spirit,” but indigenous men who consider themselves two-spirit in the traditional sense, don’t claim to be women.

    Same thing could go for F2T’s, in the interests of equality, though the situations aren’t entirely comparable because of lack of social equity between the sexes.

    Otherwise I see no compromise between those whose identity is deeply gender-role-based and those who find the entire reality of gender role enforcement repugnant.

  5. red Says:

    Sorry I disagree this has anything to do with gender. All fetish, all the way.

  6. a reader Says:

    It will take transgender people acknowledging that no matter how extreme your body modification runs, your sex doesn’t change. Your lived experience doesn’t change. Your internals don’t suddenly do a 180 degree spin. When the conflating of sex and gender stops, the discussion can finally begin.

    • darliegoddess Says:

      So you are conflating physical gender with brain gender and saying that your physical gender dominates you brain. Why aren’t you married to a man and having 2,5 kids ? Brain get inthe way did it ? Utter hypocrisy.

      • mieprowan Says:

        A Message From Science

        Hi, this is Science. It has come to our attention that we are being misunderstood. However, since we are Science, we will be reasonable about not sulking or throwing shit, and instead attempt to clarify the problem.

        Science has Hypotheses. It also has Theories. You can think of Hypotheses as baby Theories, most of whom are ruthlessly murdered. Because that’s what Science does. We are kind of like a pack of hyenas that way. 

        But we use our powers for good and not for evil, as follows. See, if you have a baby Hypothesis, it will weaken and die unless attacked. Once it survives attacks, it becomes stronger and stronger until it becomes a full-grown Theory. Theories may suffer attacks and die, but no Hypothesis ever grows up until it survives being repeatedly attacked.

        We know that some people love their baby hypotheses very much and don’t want them attacked. Tough shit. We’ll be happy to give you Religion’s number, though. 

      • GallusMag Says:

        @mieprowan- LMAO that you are trying to reason with this lesbophobe.

      • mieprowan Says:

        It’s too dark to mow the lawn. A little while ago I had a delightful chat with family members and friends about sexist Halloween costumes, though, so the evening hasn’t been a total waste.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Have you seen those new artificial but carvable pumpkins? They are so strange.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Artificial yet carvable pumpkins? No shit? What are they made out of? Plastic? A man invented this.

        I love this season. One of the funniest things about the Halloween costume thread was a woman commenting that her daughter wanted to be Dr. Skeleton Princess for Halloween. The mom said she didn’t know what that was, but whatever it was, they were going to rock it!

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Oh I love lesbians, I have lots of lesbian friends. It’s you men (Lesbimen) without dicks I don’t get along with at all and that is mostly because you are pretend men. All the bad stuff like stubborn , backwards thugs that live in denial of their own attraction.

        No, he wasn’t reasoning with me. So just explain why you aren’t married to a man and tell us how physical sex dominates brain gender. That simple.

      • mieprowan Says:

        “Oh I love lesbians, I have lots of lesbian friends. It’s you men (Lesbimen) without dicks I don’t get along with at all and that is mostly because you are pretend men. All the bad stuff like stubborn , backwards thugs that live in denial of their own attraction.”

        Wow, that’s really fascinating that you have all these Lesbian friends who conveniently have penises. Are you still insisting you’re women? I get behind with the news at times. I was wondering whether maybe you have all finally agreed to move your fantasy into some other turf. No? Thought not.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Some sort of non-flammable composite. Yeah they are weird. Skeleton Princessss!! for the win.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Yeah. Dr. Skeleton Princess is like the ghosts of Snow White and Cinderella and Rapunzel and all that princess victim crap. She shows up on your doorstep on All Hallow’s Eve, and if you give her any shyte about being a cute skeleton princess, she stares you dead in the eye, and says:

        “That’s DR. Skeleton Princess, to you.” 

        And no fucking cheap-ass candy, unless you want to get up the next day and find it mashed into your car windows.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Wow, that’s really fascinating that you have all these Lesbian friends who conveniently have penises”

        Sorry dude, they are women , they don’t have a penis ! You sure live in a fantasy world.

        “Are you still insisting you’re women? ”

        You know, unlike you I don’t have to tell people I am to have them recognize it. Funny huh ?!

      • a reader Says:

        Physical gender and brain gender? I feel like I’m in Rush Hour, and Chris Tucker is yammering “Do you hear the words that are coming out of mah mouth??” Do you actually believe what you’re saying? I think that makes you scarier. Delusion makes people scary.

        If by “physical gender” you mean “sex” and by “brain gender” you mean “sunshine and rainbows from magical fairy land”, then no, I conflate nothing. I’m not married to a man as I am not attracted to men, and I do not have children as my testicles were removed during SRS, and I certainly didn’t get a magical female reproductive system put inside of me. They wanted me to bank sperm before SRS, and I flat-out refused — I told them that whatever crazy thing is wrong in my head, there’s no way that there will be a chance in passing that on to another human being. In my gene pool, it stops here.

        Why are you so mad, anyway? You could run away to the island of misfit toys where everyone is trans and they’re all sucking back “lady-peen” (whatever the hell THAT is) and perpetuating some crazy delusion that black is white and white is black. People would look in every so often with a “Whoa, that shit’s pretty weird, glad it’s over on that crazy island” and then go back to their everyday lives where there’s a male sex and a female sex that aren’t being stripped away by virtue of wordplay and threats for anyone that doesn’t play along with the fantasy. We have places for people with crazy delusions, and they get to wear jackets with the arms on backwards, while rocking back and forth in a room with padded walls repeating their delusions aloud for an audience of one.

        I’m getting carried away, so I’ll stop. Fact of the matter is, we have sex, something real, immutable, scientifically quantifiable. The entire human race depends on the immutabilty of it. Trans people aren’t having children — and if they are, they are doing it by means provided by their REAL, IMMUTABLE BIOLOGICAL SEX. That “lady-peen” didn’t spew “lady-sperm” into “his vagina”, combine with eggs from “his fallopian tubes” and come to grow in “his uterus”. I can’t even believe I just had the temerity to type such nonsense.

        Then we have gender. A wishy-washy, hippy-dippy stream of subjective nonsense about behaviours and attitudes and objectives and particular colour choices. Which some people, like yourself, believe erroniously to be innate, provided somehow by one’s brain. It suits the narrative, simplies the explanation. “Oh yes, I came out with an XY body, but tee-hee, and XX brain, wasn’t that just the most inconvenient mistake? Tee-hee, do you hear my FEMININE giggle? Aren’t I just the super cutest?”

        Fucking barf.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        To areader

        “I feel like I’m in Rush Hour, and Chris Tucker is yammering “Do you hear the words that are coming out of mah mouth??””

        Put the coke spoon down.

        ” Do you actually believe what you’re saying?”

        No, it’s a test like god planting dinosaur bones dude.

        “If by “physical gender” you mean “sex””

        Outwards physical manifestations of gender characteristics.

        ” I certainly didn’t get a magical female reproductive system put inside of me.”

        No, perhaps it’s your attitude. Be positive like the tens of million of women who can’t have babies.

        “They wanted me to bank sperm before SRS, and I flat-out refused”

        Thank you from humanity.

        “Why are you so mad, anyway?”

        Happy as a clam actually.

        ” and perpetuating some crazy delusion that black is white and white is black”

        Really, thats crazy, you have a wonderful sense of humor when comparing humanity to color charts. Brilliant!

        “People would look in every so often with a “Whoa, that shit’s pretty weird, glad it’s over on that crazy island”

        Gosh it’s like you read my mind, I think that about this site ALL THE TIME!

        “We have places for people with crazy delusions”

        Washington

        “I’m getting carried away, so I’ll stop”

        No go on, Im laughing!

        “Trans people aren’t having children”

        Thank you again for not saving that sperm.

        “Which some people, like yourself, believe erroniously to be innate, provided somehow by one’s brain.”

        Really, you keep yours in your shoe, or does it come out of a tube like toothpaste ?

        “Tee-hee, do you hear my FEMININE giggle? Aren’t I just the super cutest?””

        Sorry but , these anonymous postings don’t really allow me to see or hear you. Isn’t that crazy! Care to show yourself ? Might clear up all the misconceptions about what you are saying?

      • mieprowan Says:

        Wow, I am happy as a clam about men wanting to shove broken objects inside women. Thanks for this explains everything!

      • GallusMag Says:

        darliegoddess- are you a father?

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “darliegoddess- are you a father?”

        Have you stopped beating your wife ?

        No , I’m a stepmother. Are you a father?

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Wow, I am happy as a clam about men wanting to shove broken objects inside women. Thanks for this explains everything!”

        You have been on anti-depressants too long. Not what I said on this dimensional plane princess perky pants.

      • Motherhood Says:

        No I am saying there is no such thing as “jendur” there is biological sex–that can’t be changed. Jendur is you issue not mine.

      • a reader Says:

        I suppose all I can do here is reiterate, “darliegoddess”. When the conflating of sex and gender stops, the discussion can finally begin. You just want to pick a fight with these people, but you miss the real, obvious fact that not only does what they say have validity, for the most part they are right!

        Yes, some of the things they have to say about trans people don’t fit everyone, can’t tar everyone with the same brush, blah blah blah. Boo-hoo, cry me a river. They aren’t after the small smidgen of trans people that don’t drink the kool-aid — but you’d know that if you took the time to really read this blog.

      • anon Says:

        And you’re conflating skepticism and criticism with Nazis. Might want to lay off the hormones, dear.

      • Nixon Says:

        “married to a man and having 2.5 kids” is not what it means to be female, it’s not what it means to be a woman, and it is the height of misogyny to impose such a role on anyone who claims womanhood based on the lived experiences they had as a result of the sex they were born into. Hipocrisy is using “men” as an insult against women who have had nothing but abuse from men their entire lives. You are the only hypocrite here.

      • Versa Says:

        “‘We have places for people with crazy delusions’

        Washington”

        Okay, now *that* was actually funny! Congratulations, Darlie, after trying so hard and so long, you finally said something clever!


    • Please explain to me what you mean by my sex changing? If I’m XY, I will remain XY. However, the cellular machinery that manage male and female biochemistry all live on the X chromosome, if you give a male estrogen and progesterone (depending on the availability of active estrogen sites on the person’s epigenome… one more reason younger people have more profound changes) they will go through a female puberty.

      I experienced normal breast development (complete with incredibly sensitive/painful nubbins), sexual sensitivity of nipples and aereolas and depending on hormone cycling, monthly breast swelling, soreness and even minor lactation (with the rare experience of the reflex of letting down.)

      Skin and hair changes. Dramatic sharpening of senses and reflexes. Reduction of muscle mass. Increase in adipose and feminine fat distribution. Many things don’t change. Voice, skeleton, urogenital tract. Many things do change, the heart is now capable of expanding like any woman’s heart (you could transplant a transperson’s heart into a pregnant woman and when she goes into labor her heart will nearly double in size, just like the heart she was born with.) A transwoman has a female health profile for cancer, heart disease and neurological diseases.

      I grew up gender nonconforming. I was uncomfortably pretty, feminine. I’m probably partially androgen insensitive. I always tended towards girl friends. I was continuously chased and beaten from 2nd grade until High School. This included nearly being raped (I was an idiot hitch hiking at 16, and if I hadn’t jumped out of the moving car…) and being strung up in a garage and having my breast burned with a hot steam iron. I personally assumed I was socialized as male. This self opinion was shattered when I began transition and had to work with a therapist. I was 37, I was so androgynous, the therapist had to ask me which way I was going. As we worked together I explained my life experience and world view and she gave me three books on female masochism. First born, taking care of my siblings, responsible for the house when my Mom was at work. Reading the books, was like someone had been recording my life and recounting back it to me. I was textbook female masochist.

      What I’m trying to say here is that I may not have a woman’s life experience, I know nothing of menstrual cycles, female birth control or pregnancy. But I’m intimately familiar with a yummy ache 3 inches below my navel and about four inch in when I’m with somebody who makes my knees weak. I know exactly what multiple and cluster orgasms are. I love having my inner and outer life consistent. I’m not trying to usurp women anything, I just want to stop living at odds with physicality and life experience, and trying function in a society that actively tries to destroy anything that doesn’t fit the gender binary.

      So, this is so very complicated, and I guess its supposed to be. I have a unique experience of sex and gender, and I completely agree its not mainstream anything (man or woman.) But I can say with absolute certainty that I have far more in common with women than Ive ever had with men. Men have always been a complete mystery to me.

      Perhaps we need to create a third sex to accommodate those who are neither fish nor foul. I don’t know. But that’s why its important to be open to discuss, ask questions, and let discovery trump opinion and dogmas (on all sides.)

      Some here mentions science. The latest science points at transpeople having white matter consistent with their gender and not their genetic sex. Brain sex and structural dimorphism appears to be epigenetic. There’s so much more to understand, but we at least may be seeing the beginning of physiology that points at behavior. Of course this has nothing to do with preference or fetish or social development.

      I’m happy to provide extensive documentation on research and work going all the way back to 1996. That doesn’t change the sad fact that there’s a lot of bad information going around and a lot of sloppy superstitions being proffered as fact.

      So please define you terms, because some definitions would physiologically indisputable while others are clearly open for discussion, even debate. I’m not threatened by you opinions or beliefs, you have every right to them, and I’m open to whatever facts you choose to bring to the table. That’s the nature of healthy discussion.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        They don’t care what you are. You once had the “male” designation. It’s the Tea Party of Gender.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Pure autogynephilia.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Lol! Ok, so you post an old story about a FTM being kicked out of a MALE washroom them mumble “Pure autogynephilia” ?!

        You are right about one thing, women are autogynephilic as Moser approved (96% positive).


      • There’s a lot of fetishism in the existing gender community. Testosterone fucks up people’s heads (wires utterly nonsexual things to sexual behavior. Talk to F2T, Testosterone messes you up) I know some autogynophiles, I don’t get it. Turning womanhood into another male pissing contest… makes my head hurt.

        Again, there’s nothing wrong with fetishes as long as they’re distinguished as such. Its just that as such, if you are an autogynophile, then by definition you aren’t the thing you fetishize. You’ve nothing to say about womaness, because you’ve reduced womaness to an appearance, an occurring, things to do. There is no “profound relationship” to the fundamental nature of the being of women.

        So being feminine, is not the same as being a woman. Even when society puts you in the social category of woman. it takes years, even decades of living and relating to other women to even begin to have anything to say about womaness.

      • GallusMag Says:

        annemarie your male cervix was mentioned by Lierre Keith in the Julian Vigo piece. Did you see it? You are famous, dude!

      • Siobhan Says:

        Annemarie, I do appreciate your willingness to discuss without hostility. However, your facts are wrong and actually quite dangerous. Trans individuals have the disease profile of their natal sex, plus additional risks due to cross-sex hormones. Believing otherwise is dangerous. Look at the guidelines from the Center of Excellence for Transgender Health at UCSF. Also, the “white matter” study from the newscience article has been repeatedly refuted. It just didn’t hold up because there were serious methodology problems. There are some small but statistically significant differences between the brains of transgenders and non-transgenders, but these do not fall along gender lines. Rather, they are consistent with differences found in various types of body dysmorphia and delusion.


      • I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you did not go through a “female puberty”. Now, or ever. As you stated, you are XY and you will remain so, so, no, sorry, you did not experience an XX puberty.

      • Kay Says:

        So are you still maintaining that you have a cervix? I totally remember that post because it was so thoroughly delusion. That your he-cervix shocked your OB-GYN?? You may have a great approximation of a vulva (the pretty outer bits) but that leads into a single purpose fuck-hole. It is not a vagina, because a vagina is a tunnel leading to the uterus which you do not have and therefore cannot have a cervix, because that is the entrance to the uterus that you do not have.

        Why on earth are you even seeing an OB-GYN? I’m sure there can be some messed up shit going on with your urethra, prostate, and other mangled innards but an OB-GYN deals with female reproductive organs, none of which you have. You have absolutely no need to pap smears- because you do not have a cervix or a uterus! Is your fuck hole going to get cancer? If an OB-GYN actually did give you a pap smear it was only to humor you. Yet another woman, a medical doctor, taking her time to play along with your fantasies. A urologist would be much more appropriate for your needs, but then again, it is not really about the actual medical care and we all know that. You wouldn’t feel like laydee sitting in a waiting room with other dudes, much better to subject a female OB-GYN to your whack-doodle “needs”– a pap smear FFS! Your “need” to see an OB-GYN is about infiltrating and dominating female space. Oh, please tell me that this was a women’s clinic that you went to for this faux pap smear! I, like millions of other women, can’t afford to see an OB-GYN and have to rely on free women’s clinics for pap smears which I actually need because I actually am very high familial risk- with those pesky actual reproductive organs that may be riddled with actual cancer. That archived post was filled with so much delusion and utter horseshit. I can see that you are trying really hard to come off as a reasonable transgender person, to the extent that being completely delusional will allow. You should take a hard look at the nonsense you have convinced yourself about your body, because you aren’t fooling any women here. I pity what you have done to your healthy male body. I think that is part of the reason the Jengur thugs are so threatened and angry and violent. Any true reflection on what you have done to your body may lead to devastating regret.

      • Brunhilda Says:

        The terms are defined, by biology. Your concept of life experience having anything to do with female vs. male (biological terms) is silly.

      • Teal Deer Says:

        But, but, but whattabout the “yummy ache” and cluster orgasms? Surely these are hallmarks of true womanhood.

        Blarg. I guess if you no longer have a penis to whip out and measure, you have to assert yourself through TMI descriptions of how “well” your faux lady bits work.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Fuck yeah, Kay! You took the words right out of my fingertips.

        Yeah, I’m trying to imagine how “annemarietobias” has the same disease profile as a born woman, when he doesn’t have a cervix, ovaries, uterus, or fallopian tubes (yup, don’t forget those, they can also become cancerous). Nor a woman’s reproductive history, which can also impact her profile. And since when do synthetic hormones completely change a person’s neurological system?! Maybe his “dramatically sharpened senses and reflexes” allow him some insight that eludes normal folk. Or not. I’m thinking definitely not.

        Tobias, the “latest science” you mention has been thoroughly debunked. You, Tobias, and others like you are the main expounders of “a lot of bad information” and “sloppy superstition”. I feel for the women who have to endure you in an OB-GYN’s office. Like Kay said, you’re obviously trying to come across as oh-so-reasonable, but the women here are smart enough to see through your smokescreen. Nice try.

  7. notsohonoured Says:

    Cue rant.
    It is fruitless for “feminism” to have, as it’s sole purpose, the liberation of ‘women’ for several reasons. Feminism, in its representation of ‘woman’ is a normalizing and exclusive practice that relies on scientific discourse, reproductive discourse, whatever discourse in its definition of woman. To represent ‘women’ literally defines and subjugates that which is to be emancipated. How do you discern that ~universal~ essence of woman, what is woman outside of a discursive practice founded on a subjugation and abjection of women? When feminists talk of emancipation, where should we be emancipated to. Within what system or social structure?
    That being said, feminism is good if it is a reflexive practice that can acknowledge its reliance on these discursive practices to exist. What possibilities are feminism creating? For who? In what ways does it fall short in creating conditions for viable subjecthood and providing representation for those who are forced into silence? For my idea of feminism (which is clearly loose, and blurred with genderism) to achieve anything there must be a critique of the very silent and violent structures that found the conditions within which we exist.

  8. notsohonoured Says:

    I should make it clear that in my questioning of the universal essence of woman, I am implying a critique of gender binaries, compulsory heterosexuality and everything else that tags along. How can you separate feminism from genderism when the powerlessness of both groups stem from the same structural problems?!

    • GallusMag Says:

      Acknowledging the existence of female adult humans subjugates us? Er, no. You’ve said nothing here.

      • notsohonoured Says:

        My point is feminism as representative of ‘women’ literally defines and restricts women in its pursuit.
        The goal of emancipation, like equal employment opportunities for example, is still within a system with inequity as its foundations. Defining women as female adult humans, and feminism as representative of them is reliant on scientific discourse and, as Foucault would put it, ‘defines that which it seeks to describe’ and this is where feminism and genderism butt heads.
        I’m quite clearly a Butlerian, perhaps that wasn’t… clear.
        “emancipating women” should not be distinct from giving a voice and political representation to people who do not fit the binary, which unreflexive feminism actually also perpetuates. Institutions like marriage, law (birth control, rape, adoption, child custody to name a few) religion, medicine, media (and informal practices like slut shaming and bullying fo rexample) are all “””normal””” practices used to a) perpetuate a gender binary which is quite clearly discriminatory and b) in it’s portrayal of what is acceptable (man OR woman) places women as powerless.
        This is my argument for feminism and genderism to coexist and be reflexive.

      • mieprowan Says:

        “The goal of emancipation, like equal employment opportunities for example, is still within a system with inequity as its foundations. ”

        No shit?

      • GallusMag Says:

        @notsohonoured- Women can’t “identify our way out of” sex-based exploitation and oppression. Child brides can’t use Foucault to opt out.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Women can’t identify our way out of anything. That’s Not Allowed. Our only option is to fight our way out.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Our only option is to fight our way out.”

        Yeah thats why you fight TGs because they are a REAL FIGHT! Probably the weakest most marginalized group to attack but being REAL MEN you pit yourself against the smallest group of unemployed victims! Wow ,you are so powerful I’m impressed!

      • mieprowan Says:

        Darlie, you’re embarrassing yourself here with responding to Gallus quoting my comments.

        Go to bed. Take a break. Learn how WordPress works. It might take you all of twenty minutes.

    • darliegoddess Says:

      “Darlie, you’re embarrassing yourself here with responding to Gallus quoting my comments.”

      Gosh , did I really ! Oh Im so embarrassed! Boo hoo! The statement was general. It was addressed to you both. Stop wasting time with your faux empathy.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Since this blog post is severely unmoderated, I think we should start talking about rape.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Oh you mean when someone transgender doesn’t tell you the second you walk in the room they were born with male genitals ? That kind of rape ?

      • mieprowan Says:

        I thought you try to pass?

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Never had to try, why , do you get “sired” by lesbians a lot ?

        RadFem rape is different then every other rape on the planet. RadFem rape only involves thought. Like a TG daring to allow a lesbian to think she is born female. It’s a form of insanity actually.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Knowing penis is male is a form of insanity? Really? Considering people who father children with sperm from their penises to be male is a kind of craziness?

      • michelle Says:

        “RadFem rape is different then every other rape on the planet. RadFem rape only involves thought.”

        The fact that you would even DEIGN to try and compare differences of opinion on the subject of trans with the actual physical violation and assault of women tells us ALL we need to know about why you are not and never will be a woman. Only a man would try to equate the two things…

    • Kay Says:

      Blah Blah Blah Bleurgh. Kiss my Bulter, dude. You also can cram your sausage-hole deep with your Derridian, Foucaultian post-structuralist nonsense! Women are not an idea created out of language. Women create the world though the bloody, fleshy reality of our bodies.


      • Thank you! Foucault is one of my biggest annoyances in the academic world.

        Some very good ideas but ultimately they are distorted through his very limited white, male, educated, upper-middle life experience. Which of course is harmful to… dun dun dun, women as a class.

        I don’t need some white dude telling me some pointless shit that I can find out from actually LISTENING to women.

    • Kay Says:

      Blah Blah Blah Bleurgh. Kiss my Butler, dude. You also can cram your sausage-hole deep with your Derridian, Foucaultian post-structuralist nonsense! Women are not an idea created out of language. Women create the world though the bloody, fleshy reality of our bodies.

    • Kay Says:

      I did my graduate thesis on a specific subset of post- structuralist literature many years back, so have put my time in- thousands of hours researching and writing. The thing that is obvious to me now, with distance and life experience, is how little use postmodern theory (in all of its incarnations) has in life as it is lived. It is fine to blather on about endlessly within the walls of academic, but it has not an ounce of pragmatism and, therefore, has no purpose in a world where social change is an urgent necessity. The queer theorists made use of the language of semiotics, structuralism and post-structuralism to give rise to the study of gender. There is some interesting early conversation about the body politic, mostly derived from Foucault (Serano has an obvious ladyee boner for the dude!) but what queer theory has accomplished in social practice, is not benign and it is the antithesis of feminism. I won’t get into my gripes with queer theory here. It has shaped the monolithic Jender movement that feminists oppose wholeheartedly. Its current incarnation has largely become the worship of rigid sex-based stereotypes that are harmful to women and non-conforming men. As women, we are socially and financially oppressed, we are raped, murdered and treated as chattel, because of our physical bodies, our reproductive function. It is not because of our choice in footwear or hairstyles! You cannot deconstruct fear- the fear of violence and rape that women experience at the hands of men every minute of every day. Radical feminism is about challenging and changing the system that promotes this. Obviously we are much more than our bodies, but no more alike than the specialist of snowflakes- there is no “universal essence”. We are not our gender, because gender does not exist in the living, breathing world. Gender is a concept that is created through language and can be deconstructed and recontextualized according to fluctuating social climates. Woman is a not an idea. We are the not the language surrounding us or used to describe us and that is why we must resist gender labels in theory and in practice.

      I resisted writing this reply because I no longer find this type of discourse fruitful or satisfying, but I did so because I think that young women, as budding feminists, are at a disadvantage within academia in our current milieu. Gender studies has replaced women’s studies in many (most?) universities and feminism is NOT a branch of gender studies! I hope that women who consider themselves liberal-minded feminists may see that radical feminism is about women and not ideas about women It is more progressive and and pragmatic than any realm of gender study relying on sex-based stereotypes.

      • notsohonoured Says:

        Yeah, I am really grappling with this at the moment. I’ve been trying to read as much as time will permit and my mind can handle. I agree women are systematically oppressed but can the same thing not be said about pretty much everyone who is not a heterosexual male?
        Women need a voice, but so do others. I’m at a stage where poststructuralist theory has been quite numbing which is apparently not uncommon, but it has validated a lot of ~feels~ that I have had- a disconnect from my body and not belonging to this label of woman that has been put on me (I identify as female, i have no gripes with that but I am still trying to figure out what that exactly means)
        Feminism isn’t genderism but I find feminism to be exclusive- that’s not to say woman doesn’t exist or people whould stop using the term and we all run around singing ba ba rainbow discursively-constituted-sheep but the only reason I can come up with to explain the factionalization within feminism is that it is exclusive and needs to get some reflexivity into it, otherwise it’s just another form of violent normalizing power disguised as liberation.
        I disagree about poststructuralist or postmodernism not being fruitful, but the theories themselves are not enough, I suppose. I cannot agree that a problematization of the very foundation of sex/gender/body is not useful in shaking things up though. I legit really appreciate your reply, I’ve been struggling with these ideas for a while but have only been studying this (for my honours dissertation) for like 2 months- If you have any recommendations of who to read or even would let me be a pest and pick your brain from time to time that’d be swell.

      • LC Says:

        Brilliant commentary. The whole gender movement has enabled men to disguise their sexism as progressivism- and I can’t see any point to it other than that. Women can’t identify out of being told they’ll never be as good at math as men, let alone sexual assault and rape. I can remember remember having an argument with a friend who calls herself a feminist about that even if the whole ‘female brain’ theory was true, there was nothing in a female brain that required one to wear dresses or care about appearance(which, as the owner of one, I should know?). The fact that that’s even now a question, confused with the idea that “gender presentation isn’t a choice” is absolutely disgusting and anti-feminist.

        There is no discourse to be had with men who believe that woman is an idea in their heads, rather than a fully human individual capable of childbirth. There never has been.

      • red Says:

        Thanks Kay and please please come back.


      • Yes! This times a thousand, thank you.

    • Nixon Says:

      Please stop conflating definition with oppression, it’s embarassing…

  9. darliegoddess Says:

    Tell us all Gallus, why don’t the UFC define “female” for their fighters through genetics ? Tell your bully boys here how”born women” fighters don’t have enough female genes to be defined as female! It’s why Fallon Fox is allowed to fight without a genetics test.

    Tell them Gallus why you lesbimen define rape as NOT TELLING lesbimen you were born male ! I’ve been noticing a fascinating trend among my friends, have you? TG women and lesbians becoming lovers and partners. One of my friends just got engaged to one. Another one has just gotten into a relationship with a totally butch lesbian.

    The problem is not that you hate TGs Mr Haggard, the problem is tat you are attracted to them and you must destroy what tempts you most! Uhuh!

    Times are changing Mr Lesbiman. You are nothing more than your Republican counterpart, getting a massive hard on watching gay porn and fighting every urge to fall. Enjoy Gallus, you gutless little man.

    • mieprowan Says:

      Darlie, I really hope you’re just drunk off your ass, because that shit is word salad. Dude. Get some sleep.

    • Siobhan Says:

      The UFC knows that they can make a lot of money putting Fallon Fox out there fighting women. Men like fights where women are getting beaten up by men. Fox may have had a lot of surgery and has a pretty face, but still moves like a man. UFC is hardly some kind of standard for gender discernment — they are a money making organization, and most of their clients are men.

      • DarthVelma Says:

        Fallon Fox does not fight in the UFC. He fights in one of the smaller MMA organizations that is using him to make a buck. I don’t see Dana White ever letting Fallon fight in the UFC. Dana’s too invested in making the sport mainstream and he knows how the average fan would react. I would also imagine that Fallon won’t ever be fighting in Invicta, the largest women’s MMA promotion, since he tried to start some shit backstage at one of their shows with a fighter a couple of weight classes smaller than him. (Even after surgery, he’s a fucking bully.)

        As a follower of the sport, I’ve seen how fans on the various bulletin boards react every time Fallon gets mentioned. While women fighters have been gaining more respect from the casual MMA fan due to the caliber of their fights, there isn’t any love for Fallon. It’s hard to find any actual MMA fans who think he should be allowed to fight women.

      • anon male Says:

        Velma, quite right. OTOH, I do think it needs to be mentioned that you can’t be a MMA writer or have a site get advertising dollars unless your official position is that

        1. doctors profiting from SRS know everything that’s knowable
        2. the random and untested “two years on hormones makes you female” claim cannot be argued

        And while fandom isn’t on the same page yet, if you want to be a “good fan” who appreciates skill and nuance and want to disassociate yourself from “Just Bleed” fans, there’s a *lot* of pressure to fall in line with the above views.

        This is especially true since it’s easier for trans to leverage non-fan trannies (and their supporters) to spam sites than it is to align female sportsfans against that sort of thing.

        On the other, other, hand, Phallon can produce as many documentaries as he wants about how historic his ass is and no one will ever be drawn to him like people were to Roxanne Modaferri last week.

        They think there’s so much passionate-passion in the “transition story” that it makes up for a lack of actual personable-ness. Not so.

      • anon male Says:

        Um, Modafferi. I feel like an asshole now. OK, maybe not JUST now.


    • Darlie, I’m just wondering what you actually get out of posting all of your nonsensical vitriol? Do you think it’s funny or do you genuinely believe what you write?

      • michelle Says:

        He is the height of male chauvinism…dons woman-face and believes it gives him a free pass to belittle females with impunity. Then at some point, he swigs from his beer bottle and belches, quickly uttering “what, it was all in good fun…what’s the problem?”


      • Ah of course, that comment I made about how much sexist, racist, vitriol you can get away with if you put the word “cis” in front of it.

        Men who play Devil’s Advocate are thorn in my side.

  10. mieprowan Says:

    Also, since this is a kind of open thread, what is it with all these M2T people who can’t write? It’s like you all went to the same school of turgidity.

    • GallusMag Says:

      LOL. How long did it take a male “transwoman” to educate me as a lesbian that I really want dick but just don’t know it?

      • darliegoddess Says:

        In the second it became apparent it mattered🙂

      • GallusMag Says:

        Golly. Why on earth would women not want “transwomen” like darliegoddess in lesbian spaces?!

      • mieprowan Says:

        Also, what’s the Henry Higgins reference about? So quaint.

      • mieprowan Says:

        TIL that some men are so obsessed with their dicks that they want to be women, who do not have dicks, in order to justify going around insisting that women are all obsessed with dicks.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Who said I wanted to be in your “male pretending to be woman” spaces? Sorry “dude” Im not in the slightest attracted to your hairy pit festivals. Have a great time!

      • mieprowan Says:

        Darlie, didn’t you hear about the Cotton Ceiling Club? That’s the go-to for male pretending to be female. You’re Welcome.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        ” TIL that some men are so obsessed with their dicks that they want to be women, who do not have dicks, in order to justify going around insisting that women are all obsessed with dicks.”

        Wasn’t it you babbling about word salads ? Too bad about Moser and proving you wrong huh ?

      • mieprowan Says:

        Darlie, this comment of yours was directed to Gallus. I am not Gallus. I am Miep. There are a number of women who post comments here, it’s not all Gallus. You do get that, right?

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Sorry DUDE, I got hooked on Drag KIngClubs early. Love to watch you boys stick rubber in your jock and swagger male!

      • mieprowan Says:

        Serious question: do you ever, in all of your waking hours, ever stop thinking about dick?

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Serious question: do you ever, in all of your waking hours, ever stop thinking about dick?”

        Being Post OP hat is a good question because honestly, I’m confronted by my boyfriends pretty constantly. He is a great guy and terrific in the U Know Where! He is with me constantly and so , yeah I guess I do deal with it all the time.

        Oh but you don’t have that because you aren’t woman right? What do you do, put strappons on and admire yourself in the mirror ? Must hurt lot knowing you are maimed like you are.

      • mieprowan Says:

        You did it again, Darlie. I am not Gallus, please learn how to address your comments on WordPress.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Darlie, this comment of yours was directed to Gallus. I am not Gallus.”

        Gosh , it’s hard to tell the difference between the bigots. Sorry, I’ll try to address each attack as if it’s coming from an opponent of distinct character.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Darlie, distinctions and differences are real. Everyone is not just one big ball of fuzz.

        If you can’t tell the difference between different persons with whom you interact on the Internet, you need to address this problem. Xanax might help. Good luck!

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Darlie, distinctions and differences are real. Everyone is not just one big ball of fuzz.”

        Does that include transgenders ?

    • darliegoddess Says:

      Oh , were we writing essays?! Please, more spelling and grammar lames! That totally validates all your ridiculous points Henry Higgins !

      • mieprowan Says:

        Nope, I never do the spelling/grammar police thing, that would be discourteous, and neither have anything to do with actually being able to write. We have some excellent writers amongst our regular contributors, and not all spell or use grammar consistently.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Boys club of course.

    • darliegoddess Says:

      “Darlie, distinctions and differences are real. Everyone is not just one big ball of fuzz.”

      Does that apply to transgender people ?

  11. RF trans-woman Says:

    For a little context, I’m a 19 year bisexual MtF, and I only just started hormones a few months ago.

    I think what it will take is for both sides to admit that there are things that they are wrong about. Having spent time browsing the comments section of this site, I can say that many of your readers are woefully mis- or under-informed about what transsexualism is, what the medical treatments for it entail, and even some of the basic realities of sex differentiation in humans. On the other hand, you’re right about a bunch of stuff. The transgender movement has many deeply misogynistic components to it. I can’t even count the number of times that people have told me they think they’re trans, and when pressed for further information start talking about dolls and dresses and gender roles.

    What trans activists need to do is essentially drop gender from their vocabulary entirely. Transgenderism is misogynistic, transsexualism isn’t. Talking about gender all the time just confuses people and obscures the real problems transsexuals face, which is a deep discomfort with their sex. Nonsense like “gender identity” is entirely irrelevant. I think most of the people transitioning, at least at a young age, really are transsexuals, but I’m afraid that there’s a good number of people who’ve been taken in by the gender based dogma and gone on to make huge mistakes. There’s a proliferation these days of new “gender identities” ranging from genderqueer, to pangender, to third gender. These sorts of people by and large do not take partake in medical interventions, which shows what they really are: gender nonconforming individuals. Gender nonconformity is great, but the problem is that these people, who have nothing medically wrong with them (as transsexuals do) latch on to the transgender movement, and get equated with transsexuals. And tragically, some of them end up taking hormones or getting surgery that they didn’t need, just because they felt confined by the gender expectations forced upon them by society. For the benefit of everyone, this madness needs to stop. Transsexualism needs to be clearly defined in a way that does not include gender, and it should be made clear that if you are not a transsexual, you should not take cross-sex hormones and you should not make surgical alterations to your body.

    As for what feminists should do? I think you should educate yourselves more on the differences between transgenderism and transsexualism. You would also do well to learn more about human sexual differentiation and the effects of hormone therapy. Biological sex isn’t quite as simple and ordered as many of you seem to believe. Honestly, most of what needs to be done is on the side of the trans activists. But perhaps, in a gesture of good will, you could use people’s preferred pronouns? It’s a long shot I know, but I figured I had to ask. It would make a lot of people feel a lot less resentful of you, and they might be more willing to listen to what you have to say.

    • darliegoddess Says:

      This is not about “goodwill”. You are not here for a gesture of kindness. You are here to generate traffic. These people hate you with a passion you will never understand.

      These RadFems are not about freeing women , they are about oppressing SOMEONE ! If to gain freedom you must oppress others then how is that freedom ? You and the variations of gender are a target because they need an enemy to rally around. Neocons had gays, Nazis had Jews, Christians have Islam. The new danger, the new threat to all that is good and holy.

      Who cares about a festival, or a safe space, they don’t. Not a bit, they are here to make you the enemy. Thats all. To oppress you as if you were a man. Read these blogs, there is nothing but hate here and they know it.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Repeat: Cotton Ceiling.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        “Repeat: Cotton Ceiling”

        And that’s supposed to mean something to anyone but you?!! Really ?! So if we haven’t quite adopted your “RadSpeak” yet! Till the please post some long explanation outlining the theories that make this some sort of viable term.

        MUFFINSHOES! Means shoes full of muffin dough. Really popular in the cisgender world.

      • RF trans-woman Says:

        I know they don’t like me, but I refuse to sink to your level of discourse. You have said nothing constructive in this comment section. No wonder people don’t like us, when people like you are our representatives. Whether my opinions are well received or not, I will never resort to insults. You only hurt yourself when you stop being civil.

      • Nixon Says:

        You need to stop comparing “feminists who disagree with me” with “evil dictators who committed mass genocide” it’s absolutely disgusting.

    • GallusMag Says:

      First of all, males are not radical feminists, for obvious reasons. So it is offensive for you to call yourself that sir.

      Second, how to you propose women carry out the responsibility of discerning between “real transsexuals” and abusive male fetishists like AnneMarieTobias and DarcieGoddess, as you suggest we should?

      How should the average woman alone in a locker room carry out that task when confronted with a scary dude in a wig exactly?

      • RF trans-woman Says:

        I wish I knew. Quite frankly, I can’t think of a good way to deal with non-passing transsexuals. That’s part of why I’m transitioning at a young age, so that I’ll never end up like that.

      • moira Says:

        “RF trans-woman,” (whic, yes, is a contradiction in terms) I believe that there are some males who transition out of trauma and social survival reasons rather than out of an autogynephilic boundary-violation fetish. I agree with Gallus that we are left with the question of how to differentiate. I’m afraid that your comment about non-passing transsexuals equating with autogynephiles will be less and less salient, as some autogynephiles are starting to transition young and will be more likely to blend in than they have been able to in the past. At least when they are late-transitioning, they are easier to spot as male. I am frankly afraid of what will happen if we start getting sociopathic autogynephiles who have done puberty blockers, early estrogen, FFS, and the rest.

        My 2 cents are that I know all of *one* “true transsexual” type who is reality-based, acknowledges that they have a male body and male privilege (regardless of having had genital surgery to superficially resemble a female, and otherwise being assumed to be female by anyone who isn’t told about their history). This person defends female-only space and women’s rights, and does not toe the party line on trans. My belief is that the combination of not being an autogynephile and having been perceived and treated as female for their entire adult life are the factors that make this person “get it” more than others do. This person gets it that even being targeted for misogyny now is not the same for them as for someone born female, because our early socialization makes the continual targeting “land” differently and have a different impact.

        I suppose that if this issue came up only for these “few and far between” individuals there might be a way to do certain exceptions for someone like this on a strictly case-by-case, one-off basis. For instance, they could use public restrooms for a proper purpose (because of the combination of passing AND demonstrably not being a threat to women), but they’re not going to Michigan, and they shouldn’t get opportunities or funding that are specifically reserved for women. I don’t think this is perfect by any means; I’d have big ethical quandaries about this even still, but I can see that it would be far preferable to the legal and cultural all-out attack we currently face from the autogynephiles and their unwitting camouflagers.

        The problem with a “compromise” like this is that the autogynephiles hide behind the few people like this and pretend to be them. The problem is how to legislate the distinction. Like Gallus said.

      • RF trans-woman Says:

        Moira, I think your fears of autogynephiles transitioning younger are misplaced. I think the age of transition is much more important than whether someone is an autogynephile(AGP) or not as to what kind of person they will be afterwards. From conversations I have had with early transitioning AGPs (and I have spoken to a lot), they sound astoundingly similar to “true transsexuals” in terms of what they hope to do with their lives after transition. Virtually all early transitioners share the desire to transition as quietly as possible, and then assimilate into society with as little fuss as possible. And if they’re transitioning before their late 20s, they will probably be successful. No matter their motivations for transition, early transitioners, as a rule, live the rest of their lives in “stealth.” Romantic and sexual partners will often be the only ones who know them as anything other than female. They do not engage in activism, and are fearful of being outed, as they have a great deal to lose. There is little to fear from someone who must always conceal that part of themselves which you deem to be a threat.

        It is a very different story for late transitioners however. I don’t believe that AGPs are inherently sociopathic. I think the sociopathic tendencies displayed by a distressing number of late transitioners are a direct result of having lived 40 years of their lives as men. Despite, or perhaps because of, the fetish, AGPs experience dysphoria. So when an AGP male reaches the age of 40 and is still living as a male, in a fully male body, he is bitter and resentful. At the age of 40, Hormones won’t do much for him, and his body will always be exceedingly masculine. It is very likely that he will never pass. And because of his 40 years of male privilege, (as compared to an early transitioners 20 or so) he will feel very entitled. So he attempts to transition, and finds that his age makes this very difficult to pull off. So, desperate for anything that will make him “more of a woman,” he falls back upon female stereotypes, applying excessive amounts of makeup, wearing ridiculous outfits, and all the other nonsense his kind are known for. When, inevitably, this doesn’t work and he still is seen as a man in a dress by everyone, he gets angry. Those 40 ears of male entitlement kick in and he demands to be treated as though he were female, and becomes increasingly agitated as people refuse to cave to his demands. He is insanely jealous of women, and lashes out at them in frustration. This is how a violent, misogynistic AGP is made. A trend towards earlier transitions can only lead to fewer of these people plaguing our society.

      • moira Says:

        “RF trans-woman,” sorry, no, I’ve run across enough early(ish)-transitioning autogynephiles who do indeed have that violent sociopath thing going on, to believe anything you are saying here.

    • Molly Says:

      This is the best comment I’ve read on this post and the most viable solution I’ve seen.

      • oserchenma Says:

        Gotta say, I think there’s a lot to the simple idea here that the nonsense of transgenderism needs to be dropped by the trans community and the likelihood that there are true transsexuals out there who are not causing current radfem issues needs to be discussed further.

      • Motherhood Says:

        RF you say,”From conversations I have had with early transitioning AGPs (and I have spoken to a lot), they sound astoundingly similar to “true transsexuals” in terms of what they hope to do with their lives after transition.” You mean they don’t say they want to rape and kill women–not exactly cocktail talk even in those circles. So they have the party line down. And to you they sound like “true transexuals”. To women the XX part of humanity (remember them) they sound like rape and death threats because that is what they are. This is what I am hearing–So one guy tells some other guy a line of crap and then yet a 3rd guy brings it to women. I Don’t care what they wear or eat or do–really. But they are men–so are you. That is how it is, and women plan on staying alive and safe. We are not playing figure out who is the decapitator–no. Too bad for the .3% of men in dresses that are not violent but we are not giving pedophiles access to 4 year olds either. The fact that they don’t transition at 10 years old is not what makes them violent. The fact they are sick and violent is what makes them violent and there is no cure–just like the pedophile–no cure. The Trans movement has created this and put women in danger and lead to many women being killed and raped. When the fad is over and more women have been killed then we will have our protection from men who “feel” like they are women but can and would pull our heads from our body in with a few twists.

    • Nixon Says:

      Best thing I’ve read on this subject ever.

    • Versa Says:

      I believe that if you are born with male bits, then you are male; female bits — you’re female. And you can never truly change that. For me, that’s end-of-story.

      So if I refer to someone born male as he/him, I am saying that because I believe it to be accurate. I’m not trying to insult you. I don’t see that as an insult. I’m merely trying to be truthful. It would feel fake and wrong to me to pretend that you’re female when I know that you’re not.

      I’m sorry you don’t like it — I really am — but I shouldn’t have to pretend with you that you’re something you’re not. And I don’t think it’s fair to ask me to.

  12. mieprowan Says:

    Robbie

    More open thread:

    When I was nine or ten, my best friend was a girl who later identified as lesbian. I found her fascinating because of how she was so different and so interesting. Unfortunately, she was also being pimped by one of her much older siblings.

    She told me about it. I did not understand at the time that if your ten year old girlfriend tells you her much older siblings’ friends are raping her, that you should tell an adult. My stepfather was a pervert and my mother was, at the time, dealing with divorcing him.

    We hung out in the garage, where I kept my pet rats. Her mother was an alcoholic. I did not understand at the time that I was a haven for her.

    We both liked the book “Harriet the Spy.” She kept notebooks, deep inside of the linings of the pea coat she wore everywhere. She kept notebooks. So I kept notebooks.

    One day I came home from school, my mother was at work. My friend had broken into my house and invited neighborhood children and read to them, when I came in and found them there, an entry in one of my notebooks wherein I wrote that I thought Robbie was a little queer. I meant odd. I don’t know what I meant. But I do know that she never behaved sexually towards me. She just showed up and hung out and petted the rats and told me horror stories.

    I didn’t know what “queer” meant in a sexual context. I got the word out of older literature.

    Robbie read the excerpt out loud to me, with an audience of other children. Then they left.

    That kind of killed our friendship.

    I went back and found her when I was in Los Angeles several years later. She was trashed by then, and told me she was a lesbian. I still didn’t know what it meant. She was addicted to bad drugs and died young.

    So, since we’re doing this open thread thing, what about Robbie, who had all the makings of a quintessential butch lesbian, who got murdered by this culture? Robbie who was so smart, who used to make jokes about what animals different kids reminded her of? Robbie  whom I loved, and then she betrayed my trust, because she had no parenting and she got pimped by one of her brothers and it just all got to be too much for her, when she was around eleven years old? Because nobody, incuding ten year old me, got it that she was fucking screaming for help?

    Robbie became a heroin addict and died of an overdose in her 20’s. I don’t blame myself for not saving her. I was nine and then ten and I had not been instructed about how to handle it if your best friend is being raped.

  13. amber Says:

    Hatred runs deep. It does not need a reason, because it is unreasonable by its very nature. Extremists exist and in evey case they are angry and too often cruel and hateful.

    For myself I have noticed that these long and tedious debates seem to take place primarily between those trans and radfem people who have already developed hardened postions to the point where moderate and polite conversation is impossible. Its a little like muslim extremists debating with christian fundamentalists.

    This a great shame. Patriarchy as a system, a social idea is harmful to many but most especially to these two groups. The only person certain men hate more than a loud butchy radfem lesbian is a loud masculine looking trans woman.

    If there was any real desire for reconciliation it must start with identifying the issues, the enemy and the ideas that can bring about change. We are all humna beings and the world is a large place,everyone has a right to exist and the need to find their place in it.

    • GallusMag Says:

      You have offered absolutely nothing here except “tch tch”.

    • mieprowan Says:

      No, I want to talk about rape.

      • darliegoddess Says:

        Now if I were you I would say :

        “Mieprowan! is there any time of the day you ever stop thinking about rape ?GEEEZ! ”

        Pretty stupid thing to say isn’t it ?

      • mieprowan Says:

        Not really. Rape victims only wish we could not have those memories.

      • amber Says:

        Im not sure why anyone here would be interested in conversing with any kind of trans person. It serves no purpose. You are female radical femnists. Your natural allies are other females. Why even worry about a bunch of sick men in dresses? We obviously disgust you at a deep, visceral level. Some of the posters here cant even bring themselves to acknowledge that we are people. It has to be amended with “mentally ill” or “sick”.

        Personally Im not interested in being an ally with someone who finds my mere existence disgusting. This goes far deeper than an intellectual discussion, in fact this discussion is primarily emotional with a lot of feelings on both sides. Its not worth the effort and just given the tone of the comments it should be obvious it is essentially impossible.

        In any case trans rights continue to improve and so I am not sure what a tiny group of extremists would have to offer. They might need us but history demonstrates that we are doing just fine without them.

      • GallusMag Says:

        You’re right Amber, men have never needed to ask women permission for anything. Your side certainly seems incredibly invested in censoring feminism though.

  14. mieprowan Says:

    Gallus?

    xoxox for doing this. {{{Gallus}}}

  15. amber Says:

    Lets not forget sarcasm. Always helpful. Good luck this.

  16. Smits Says:

    I think there is a possibility for reaching out to female trans people- FTMs and the current explosion of girls calling themselves “non-binary”. While these women are deeply embroiled in their own internalised misogyny and will often lash out with the nonsense the MTF-led trans culture has taught them to regurgitate, they share our oppression as females and I think there must be ways of approaching them on that common ground.

    I really don’t have any more interest in building bridges with male trans people than I do with men not in dresses. There are a few MTFs who actually seem to grasp what female oppression means and try to act as allies to feminists, and I’m happy for them to stick around, but it’s on them to come to us the same as it is with other men.

    • darliegoddess Says:

      ” While these women are deeply embroiled in their own internalised misogyny and will often lash out with the nonsense the MTF-led trans culture has taught them to regurgitate”

      Talk about a misogynist statement! So “men dressed as women” taught them to act that way ? ! LOL! That is funny! Because they are incapable of thinking for themselves right ? LOL!

  17. red Says:

    Always makes me sick to my stomach when these mentally ill men are allowed to rant on and on. For any other psychotic disorder we know not to encourage it, to divert them kindly, and then back away softly. When it’s called trans/anything we are supposed to want to hear more?

    • michelle Says:

      While they do demonstrate their delusional thinking, their rants also display why so many of them ARE rightfully viewed as delusional and irrational. It reminds us that, as soon as we begin to hear their word vomit, we are correct in our tuning them out…

      I have no doubt that there are some trans* out there that, individually, can be reasonable and social and who recognize that sex itself is an immutable characteristic. While they are aware of the appropriation, they also do what they can to assimilate into a day-to-day society without braying on and on like the cocks in frocks insist on doing. But those will be shoved to the back of the bus by the likes of darlie plus the others like fishy, daryl and sandeen who just cannot ever put away their male tendencies to shout louder and louder in their efforts to silence and debase women.

      • K Says:

        That’s the secondary tragedy– after the women and girls being plowed under to capitulate to the avalanche of speshulness– in this situation, really. People who are legitimately harmless end up demonized because certain folks just need everyone to acknowledge how hawt and sexxxy they look in their high heels and wigs.

      • mieprowan Says:

        This is not about demonizing anyone. This is about insisting that women have rights that deserve protection and that any pro-trans legislation that oversteps these bounds is unethical and bigoted against women.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I have no doubt that the creepos like Darlie etc. have frightened off reasonable thoughtful trans from commenting here.

      • K Says:

        Like Gallus said, people like Darlie are the ones who push the laws that hurt women, whereas some ‘normal’ trans-identifying individuals probably wouldn’t,

  18. GallusMag Says:

    OK. Policy modified in case of abuse. I have put darliegoddess to bed. He never even bothered addressing the topic and just spammed and abused everybody over and over again. So, darlie clause added to the moderation policy. Repeated insane abuse will eventually be curbed, even in this thread. Please make a note of it.

  19. Gender Minefield Says:

    I know I might as well be writing this to Santa Claus, but oh well.
    The first thing that TGs need to realize is that radfems are completely justified in their mistrust of trans people and in their anger toward trans abusers. There’s been waaaay too much documented trans abuse of women for this to be denied.
    Also, trans people who “identify as women” need a serious reality check in terms of the difference between sex and gender and why it matters. Us trans women also need to realize that we are and always will be male no matter what, even the few of us who actually blend into society as women. We have to acknowledge the male privilege we were raised with (even if we were gender non-conforming) and how it gives us a significantly different experience of the world than someone born female. We NEED to respect this. (This also means that TW who insist on forcing their way into women’s spaces are flexing male privilege.)
    Third, the trans community needs to either do some serious re-working of its own boundaries or dissolve the umbrella completely. The current TG umbrella is so wide that it leaves the door wide open for creeps and abusers to fall back on identity laws. This really needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

    • RF trans-woman Says:

      I think dissolving the umbrella entirely would be the best thing to do. Make it clear that identifying as something has never and will never be make you that thing. Get rid of gender dysphoria as an idea, and replace it with sex dysphoria, which is the only reason to ever transition.

      • Motherhood Says:

        Okay but what do people “transition” to? Sex is biological immutable. So there is a male with no genitals–not a woman, still a male. After surgery what do we call a male person with no genitals? There used to be a category of legal eunuch. I would have no problem with legal eunuch that included legal eunuch spaces that are not near women’s spaces. And who pre tell is going to pay for these surgeries. Crap women can’t get cancer treatment–but the dude has to “feel” okay. Whatever as long as these guys are away from me and my kids I could not care less. But that won’t happen because the thrill is in menacing women. Demanding attention, as vehicle by which to harass women. I doubt there is going to be some kind of “decision. “What will need to happen is a few more will go off the rails. And the cat will be out of the bag–its a mental illness that is dangerous to women.


    • Yes, agreed whole heartedly, thank you.

    • Nixon Says:

      *nods vigourously*

  20. amber Says:

    Yes, men love telling people what to do. No matter what kind of female you are. But if there is a side that supports censoring I am most definetly not on it. I support fully your freedoms in every way. I dont agree with recent desicions that denied your groups the right to meet in private and to resctrict attendance as you see fit. I dont support those trans people who demonstrate at Mitchfest (spelling?) or those who attempt to attend an event where they are not wanted. You have and should gave the all important right of freedom of speech. I do not believe in hate speech laws, not of any kind or for any reason.

    I also think though that if anyone wanted to bridge this great divide it would require everyone to speak a little more politely and with some respect for peoples feelings. I dont expect it though.

    So far as the rest of the endless yodling about chromosomes and gender and surgeries and bathrooms etc etc. None of it matters to me in the least. I look and live as a female in every way and that is all I care about. Im not a feminist either, just an old lady.

  21. Bluecat Says:

    Very well said Gallus Mag. I think Darliegoddess adequately demonstrated why I for one do not want men at all in women-only spaces, and men like that only under caution in women-friendly spaces – because they so quickly make them women-hostile. I have a couple of MtT friends, both late transitioners who were previously married and fathered children, and who I knew long before their transitions. At times and places of my own choosing I’ve been supportive and helpful to them as much as I felt able to be, but that was my choice and I have no compunction about drawing the limits where I feel the need. There are men though who cannot see a woman’s boundary without wanting to step over it, and it does seriously look as if being trans, for some men, is precisely that. But good on you for inviting this debate and allowing the problem for women relating to trans to be so clearly delineated.


  22. …wow.

    You know I once said I’d like to see all the comments submitted to this website. Gallus told us that it was horrible gibberish. I now retract my desire to ever see this crap again.

    An open forum to express ideas and Darlie (formerly Darryl) shows up to unleash his crazy.

    Apparently we’re all men? Cool. I’ll take my pay rise and I’d also like to be considered for a Board or CEO position in the future. I also look forward to not being subjected to bullshit stereotypes.

    Poor Darryl gets upset when people on the internet say “mean” things about him. Jesus, insecure much? I haven’t seen insecurity like that since high school. Somebody needs to put on his big boy pants and grow up.

  23. oopster74 Says:

    Wow! Redhester, I’m going to have trouble adding anything to that, but when I initially read the blog I basically came up with a list of words, and these apply to everyone, whichever side of the fence they sit.

    Tolerance (of others)

    Patience

    Compassion

    Not jumping to conclusions ie listening without prejudging

    Being open to change your opinion. This is possibly the hardest thing for any of us to do.

    Respect – this is a 2 way street. How can anyone expect to be respected, if they don’t respect others.

    Be a positive example to others.

    Obviously, someone has to take the moral high ground on this one, and if we say “I’ll do this, but you have to do this first” isn’t the way to do it.

    I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed out, but I can’t think of anything else right now.

    • GallusMag Says:

      What you’ve missed out on is that you are one of the most violent male offenders who has hosted and encouraged the most extreme threats ever directed towards us.

      • oopster74 Says:

        That is utter bullshit GM! I’m sorry, but you insulting me by deliberately misgendering me aside, I have never made any threats towards anyone, and I dare you to prove otherwise. I should have known better than to trust you’d keep things civilised.

      • GallusMag Says:

        You hosted and egged on the worst threats ever issued against Cathy Brennan and myself on page after page of your blog- threats to commit mass murder against feminists and burn our faces with acid- posted by a “transwomen” using a photo of a woman with acid-burned face as an avatar. You are vile and deranged and what you did is NOT undoable. You should be in jail.

      • oopster74 Says:

        Actually, no. While it’s true I’m no fan of Cathy Brennan, I have never advocated violence or threats against her. I think you might have me confused with someone else. I haven’t used the avatar you described. Like I say, prove it, post links to these supposed pages, but seeing as they don’t exist, that’s not something you can do.

        I seriously had hoped you we’re trying to make a positive reach out to the trans community to mend fences, bury hatchets, but that was obviously never your intention.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Lying fuck. You still have many of them up on your blog you sick sick awful man.
        Anyone curious just google “aerynxv” with “oopster74”.

        Hateful liar.

        https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/aeryn-fulton-post-doctorate-medical-research-pittsburgh-death-threats/

      • GallusMag Says:

        Leave this discussion now. You have NOTHING to offer and should be arrested.

      • GallusMag Says:

        That clicking you hear is Oopster furiously deleting.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        I remember that avatar! Yeah, don’t try and present yourself as anything remotely close to reasonable or sane, oopster. You have deep, deep issues. Get thee to the nearest ER – the therapy provided in-patient is your only hope.

    • Motherhood Says:

      Thanks for the list. How long did that take you? Tolerance what do you mean? I tolerate men all day long. That is not what you mean. So, right to the point, no. I am not pretending a male is a woman–sorry. Respect–why? Do something worthy of my respect then I give it. It is not on demand because you breath air and piss.

  24. Mortified Says:

    Bless you, GallusMag. You’re a good soul. I do faithfully follow your blog, but I don’t always take the time to comment and participate, sorry. But what more can be said?

    Genderism and feminism can never come together. Transgenderists vary widely in how crazy they are. They’re not all completely divorced from reality. But one core belief they share is indeed off the deep end: that is: that imaginary “gender” is more important than actual, biological sex.

    Also as has been pointed out many times here, there is no desire of genderists to come together with feminism except in the terms of conquering and assimilating feminism. It seems to be mostly about male privilege: M2Ts thinking they can do a better job at being women than real biological women, while F2Ts try to grab a piece of the patriarchal pie.

  25. gabrielsglen Says:

    dont expect me (a lesbian) to date sleep with or marry those not me ( xy individuals and/or those whose main goal in life is to be like xy individuals.ie transitioning individuals or men) gathering in common space is sometimes acceptable but if I am in private space and I say NO then I mean NO.I respect you when space is created to which I am not invited so I expect you(meaning those not me not anyone in the particular) to allow me the same courtesy

  26. KittyBarber Says:

    I don’t think there is a way to meet in the middle. There is no ‘middle.’ “Transgenderism” (including all beliefs and practices thereof) is the antithesis of feminism. If males who are gentle and kind are, somehow, considered NOT male, and if females who are strong brave etc. are somehow NOT women, then we are forever lost. The only way the world can change to free us ALL from the prison of sexism is if we are ALL accepted as we are. As we are.
    That’s what feminism is about.

    • KittyBarber Says:

      And for those who might a first-time reader here or any of the many great informative places to learn about the HARM that gender inflicts on biological females around the world, THAT’S what I mean by the ‘anthesis of feminism.’ An anti-feminist believes in the oppression of women, in all its many and often violent forms. And transwomen are not women. They are, as they say themselves, ‘transwomen.’

  27. femingen Says:

    From my perspective, it’s not so much a matter of bridging the divide, but more of allowing for peaceful coexistence on each side of the chasm. That’s because I’m not sure there is a way to reconcile to opposing points of view in a way that makes everyone happy. Either gender is something hard-wired into your brain; or, gender is something put on you, whether you want it or not, the moment you are born and your sex is declared.

    And, really, that’s OK.

    I’m prepared to live in a world where not everyone agrees with my point of view. Maybe it’s because I’m older now, and I’ve lost a lot (but not all) of my youthful anger, but I don’t feel a need to make everyone agree with me. Don’t agree with my take on religion? Fine. Don’t want to vote the way I do? OK. Don’t line up with me on my view on gender? Okiedoke.

    I am fine coexisting with transgender people. I don’t oppose their right to seek medical interventions (though from my own history, I believe messing with hormones can be dangerous, and I hope that the possible repercussions are discussed and warning signs watched for). I don’t care if people get surgery to look the way that they believe they should look — even if I harbor doubts about the wisdom of that. And I say that understanding that some of those same people harbor the same very serious doubts about my thought process. And, again, that’s OK.

    I do know that transgender people face unacceptable amounts of discrimination on the job and in housing, and I oppose that. I believe everyone should be entitled to civil rights. I do know that many trans* people are targeted for violence — but I also know that this violence almost always comes from men, so I do not accept the blame.

    Some things most trans* people claim I wholeheartedly disagree with. I don’t think you can manufacture a woman mid-stream. You can’t be what women are without going through girlhood and all it entails. Neovaginas aren’t the same thing as vaginas for many, many reasons. I outlined several of them here: http://femingenuality.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/lies-my-ex-husband-told-me-if-i-got-a-vagina-itd-be-just-like-yours/ This is not to say that having a neovagina is bad or wrong, but yours and mine are just fundamentally different, and I’m perpetually not in a mood to pretend otherwise.

    Similarly, my life has been marked by things such as a struggle with infertility, operations to correct hemorrhagic uterine bleeding, the role hormone-based birth control has played in my bouts of depression — all things that have only occurred to me because I am biologically female. On top of that, I have had to contend with societal-based disadvantages conferred on me because of my sex, including rapes, job discrimination and harassment and the ongoing expectation of gender roles. I don’t discount the challenges trans* people face, biologically or socially, but they are not the same.

    All these things are in the realm of belief. Now, for the realm of action.

    The only real problem I have comes when trans* people insist that because they believe a certain way, that they have a right to act in a way that affects me, or demand that I act in a way that suits them. In this discussion, that has primarily come down to the issue of who is allowed access to which spaces.

    I believe that all classes of people are entitled to their own spaces. I have participated in the NAACP, for example, as a white person, because their organization permits it. I don’t stamp my feet because other organizations for black people wouldn’t allow me to join. They have very real reasons to want that exclusive space, and they have a right to claim it. I would be a jerk to try to intrude.

    Women are the same, though I understand that in this case, the discussion of “who is a real woman” makes this more complicated. That’s OK. I’m also a Jew, and we’re used to the “who is a real ___” discussion, which has also raged on for centuries and which has also never completely been resolved. And it doesn’t have to, really, so long as each group has some space of its own and the ability to decide who gets to access it.

    So, absolutely. There should be spaces for “women-born-women” only, if we want it. And there should be “women only” spaces that include transwomen, if that is wanted. And there absolutely should be spaces for transwomen only, too, because I do believe you deserve a place to share your own experiences without “others” listening in.

    Things like changing rooms and bathrooms are more complicated, not because of trans* people or women-born-women so much, but because of men. Men tend to be more violent, and the trans* people’s concern about not using men’s restrooms for fear of violence is real. But, so is the women-born-women’s fear. I don’t see an easy way to resolve this, short of making unisex bathrooms more common.

    Finally, there are areas of agreement that could bring us closer. I think both sides agree that strictly imposed gender norms hurt us all. I think we all want the freedom to act in a way that feels right for us, no matter what the doctor declared us to be when we were born. We have a fundamentally different way of going about this, with one side saying “boys can like playing with dolls!” and the other saying “boy playing with dolls? probably a girl!” But we all, I think, agree that any child playing with a doll is OK, just as any child playing with mud is OK, and any adult can decorate cakes or fix cars or whatever. So, I think there is common ground, if we want to find it.


    • I made another comment earlier rather hastily, where I said that each comment beyond the first few weren’t beautiful, but I do want to express strong agreement with what’s posted here. I’m rather new to this discussion, and honestly had only come to even be aware of some sort of divide between feminism and the trans* community rather recently. I’m still a college student, and here, the feminist community on campus in the Women’s Center and the trans* community get along rather well. I was introduced to feminist thought here, too, so that’s why I just wasn’t really aware of the divide. But since becoming aware of it, I’ve come to understand some of the issues on both sides.

      One thing that I’m glad you stressed is that cisgendered women and trans* women have unique issues that face them. I feel as though these issues are related in their origin, (that being a society which treats gender / sex roles as a universal truth,) but that how these issues manifest themselves are unique. For there to be a space which exclusively discusses these unique issues makes sense. I do find it concerning that there seems to be a great deal of transphobia in the feminist community, at least from what I have seen here, and it seems as though the desire to have a unique space to discuss issues facing cisgendered women stems more from that transphobia than anything. In response to that, all I can do is relate back to the first two comments which stressed the importance of love and understanding. That’s what will bridge the divide more than anything.

      • moss Says:

        Ah, college! How you’ve learned all the proper language! Barf. We don’t call ourselves ‘cisgendered’ kid.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        Yes, yes, and yes. In the feminist community I am in, there is not a divide, but a joining together for shared causes. We work to understand and educate one another. I am blessed to know some wonderful people who are transgendered and they work for LGB rights as well as the T. Many of us feel there is solidarity. It was through feminist work that I first learned of the politics of inclusion.


      • Honestly I’m more concerned about the rampant misogyny, racism and classism demonstrated by the trans community than I am worried about so-called “transphobia” in the feminist community.

        Remember, feminism is a class analysis.

        From a fellow uni student.


      • In response to the comment “We don’t call ourselves ‘cisgendered,’ kid”…

        I’m aware that a lot of people here don’t use that term. However, given that the content of my post did need to make a distinction between people who identify with their assigned gender and those who don’t, the use of the term “cisgendered” was entirely appropriate. Furthermore, your choice not to use the term gives me no obligation to avoid it.

      • artemisontheland Says:

        I’d like to interject that the term “cisgendered woman” is a transactivist derived addition to the lexicon. By their own definition, it describes a woman who has gender identification in accordance to her biological sex. By strict definition, that can only mean a feminine heterosexual woman, married and reproducing at the first opportunity, who does not behave or think outside of her feminine identity, hence she would most likely not be here participating in this dialog. No masculine attire, no speaking out, certainly can NOT mean lesbians or RadFems, nor any acts of feminism really. It’s an act of misogyny that this term is used and an insult. NO one here or anyone participating in gender critical analysis can be considered cisgendered, by definition. Please stop using this term to describe those born female.


      • In reply to Artemis,

        I feel as though I must be misunderstanding what you mean. It’s entirely true that by the trans* community’s definition, to be “cisgendered” is to identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth. What I don’t understand is how when using the term “cisgendered woman,” this implies that you’re referring specifically to “feminine women.” I also find it problematic that your idea of a “feminine woman” is, to simplify your description, the human version of a doormat.

        I would like to express that in my interactions with the trans* community, all of the women who you described are accepted. Women who regularly wear “masculine attire”, women who speak out, lesbians, and feminists. Everyone there uses the term “cisgendered” to describe those people if they identify with their assigned gender. Being cisgendered has nothing to do with being either masculine or feminine. That’d be silly since everyone there recognizes that masculinity and femininity are social constructs. It just means that you identify with your assigned gender.

  28. Em Says:

    The core of the problem seems to be the trans claims to special legal, medical, and social treatment. They’d have to drop those. In other words, not gonna happen, although as with all panics the influence and apparent urgency of trans will wane over time.

  29. Tobysgirl Says:

    May I tell a little story? There was a troop of baboons in Africa (I apologize for not remembering which country) dominated by some very aggressive males who made life hell for the females and lesser males. One day they discovered a lot of meat that had been thrown out, and the aggressive males had a feast, not allowing the females and lesser males to indulge. It turned out that the meat was poisoned, the aggressive males died, and the troop became a much happier place for the surviving females and males, who did not allow any more aggressive behavior. My question is: Which group would trans such as darlie have been in?

  30. Deborah Bell Says:

    They are not really in conflict as far as I am concerned, except in some folks wild imaginings.Some people seem far too focused on other’s personal choices than on doing anything constructive for women and that is very unfortunate.

    • mieprowan Says:

      Deborah, your comment is disingenuous in that it ignores the legal and ethical issues involved when men have access to female-designated facilities and resources.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Disingenous is certainly the word. Deborah tweeted at me defending Cristan William’s lesbophobia, then tried to post a comment on my Lesbian Caucus thread asking lesbian readers to contact her. Creepy.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Ah, a corrective rape handmaiden. How special.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        I know of no transwomen that are a threat as far as rape to any other women. I am a feminist activist and a lesbian so I want contact with those other folks who want to do constructive work. I will be holding a lesbian caucus at Creating Change if my proposal is accepted and a workshop on Lesbianism and Feminism. Another person is submitting a proposal on “Building a Rainbow Bridge” of how we all can work together however we identify.Why this “them and us” stuff. It is not productive.

      • mieprowan Says:

        This is just silencing. There have been a number of instances of trans and supporters threatening women online, specifically, but not only, for wanting to have women born women conferences, etc. If you think this never happens then you are ignoring the personal experiences of well-known radical feminist activists.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        Cristan is not lesbiphobic. I know where personally and find that a ridiculous accusation.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        People that have transitioned are the gender they have transitioned to, so if someone has transitioned male to female, they are female. Let’s work so there are enough resources for all. We should ntot be in competition for them.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Deborah is forming a Male lesbian caucus. LMAO.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Will Cristan be co-chairing the male lesbian caucus with you Deborah?

    • Motherhood Says:

      Oh please, don’t be absurd or stupid. Personal is when you don’t cross over into my rights and other womens–I know I should be “nice” because it a “personal choice” Fine keep it to yourself. Do not walk into my space. Do not even ask or suggest I use a “prefered pronoun” don’t apply for anything designated for women, or join anything for women or speak publically as a woman if you happen to male XY. These men took it out of the “personal choice” realm and expect to have their fetish and personality disorders treated like a civil right. You certainly understand why that would be a resounding no.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Yes, we are often told we should use their preferred pronouns because they get so upset when we don’t, but this is just another example of men being expected to be treated with kid gloves about something that women generally don’t make a big deal out of. I’ve been called “sir” at times, I just ignore it. But to call a man “sir” when he’s pretending to be a woman blows his fantasy. Calling him “she” is being complicit in his efforts to fool people. Also it sets a precedent for legal redefinition.

        I was reading a thread the other day about how they think there is no need to tell a partner in a relationship about SRS unless the partner wants children! Imagine withholding something of such magnitude.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        I assert that there are specific concerns for women but no reason other feminist should not be concerned about them. You have placed judgement on something you have not understanding about. Why should it even take up our time? Attacks on individuals says more about the person making the attack than on who it being attacked. Anyone who is same-sex loving is transgender because we transgress societal rules based on what “we are suppose be like or what we are suppose to do”. YOu might as well say that Lesbians can’t be butch or that all women should only have sex with men.
        You should be nice because that is what women are suppose to be – hell no. If we insist only rigid dichotomy between being one way or another and only one is tolerated or acceptable? Not what I have spent my life’s work doing.

      • mieprowan Says:

        What absolute and utter crap. You know perfectly well transgender is not synonymous with homosexual.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Deborah if you have -or have ever had- a penis, you are not a lesbian. If your partners have a penis you are not a lesbian.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        I have never had a penis as part of my body. I was once married to a man and have two children but have only partnered with women sexually during the last 30 years, call that what you will.

      • GallusMag Says:

        My point is that you believe heterosexual men are lesbians, Deborah.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        Absolutely not. Women who love women/partner with women are lesbians. You think trans-women are not women, but are men. I have never been one to say that a person who transitions is the same as a woman-born-woman for a number of reasons. However, I respect the individuals who have made difficult choices and have a need to live as the gender they identify as, whether I understand it all or not, it just something that is. One can choose to accept that or not. There are some M2F folks who operate in the world, being fueled often times by growing up with white, male privilege, with a certain sense of entitlement that goes with that, and that can be uncomfortable to deal with. My concerns have more to do with how do we work together for equality? Do we do it by deeming others “unequal”? Can we do it without animosity? Does there have to be a “them or us” mentality?

      • amber Says:

        This is always a fascinating place. So many delusional people with very strange ideas. Almost as if being transsexual is a new thing, something that just popped up in the last few years.

        The answer to all of the complaining about who we are or what we feel or where we go or which washroom we use is exactly the same as it has always been. Double ditto to surgeries which we have been doing for thousands of years. Just not as painful now.

        We are not gay men or lesbians to walk around yacking about our personal business. That is something cis people do. We dont have preferences or orientations. And as has always been true cis people do not and can not understand how we feel. Foolish to go around trying to explain as if we have anything in common with them.

        We do what we do because it is what we need to do. Its true now and it was true 100 or 1,000 years ago. Its hardly the machinations of some nazi led medical industry. How silly. Equally silly to talk about or look for acceptance whatever that means.

        We transition, blend in and disappear, if we can. If not, we die, usuallly sooner, sometimes later. Thats how it is. Not a debate, not bad or good, it just is. This ridiculous idea about living openly does not work. Not for us, its a lesbian idea, a gay idea.

        Someone, a few people asked why all the people , the trans people who post here are crazy. So now you know. They are living out , living with a false hope that cis sexual people can understand. Just doesnt work, it makes you miserable and far worse.

      • AsukaMiyuke Says:

        “Practice thinking like a woman” blows the whole lady brain bullshit out of the water.

      • amber Says:

        Gallus Mag

        Im not sure why you posted a brief conversation I had from four years ago or what point you were trying to make. But if you have a point, just make it. I could guess where you are going but you have taken my one comment out of context. No big deal, BUT, oh my, how horribly creepy and predatory to think that you actually have the time to search out something like this. I wont say you frightened me but this thing you did, its pretty disturbing and unsettling. Fair ball, to use comments posted in public if you are arguing but this was over the line of normal behaviour. You should really seek out help, not liking or disagreeing is normal, but this crule hatred and predatory, stalking behaviour is not healthy. Please, Im not sure how to do it, but just block me altogether from this site.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        @ “Amber” – you (meaning trans people) don’t have “preferences or orientations”? So trans people are not attracted to anyone? I have a feeling a lot of them would beg to differ. Unless you meant that somehow your fetish means more, o so much MOAR!, than simple sexual orientation. Right.

        “And as has always been true cis people do not and can not understand how we feel.” Replace “cis” with “men” and maybe you’ll understand why we’re upset. Maybe. Won’t hold my breath.

        Also, “blocking you from this site” (if it were even possible), won’t stop anyone from being able to easily pull up Facebook crap, even from four years ago, just by Googling your name. Time to learn how the internet works. A simple Google search is NOT stalking. Ask any woman who’s ever been stalked by a man. I doubt this fact will stop you from screeching and crying to other MtT about how mean ol’ Gallus “stalked” you, however. Go for it! Go for the drama, “Amber”! You can do it!

    • michelle Says:

      How in the hell does a “feminist activist” insist on conflating sex and gender? Deborah, you should know that sex and gender are NOT the same thing and that a male cannot become a female, no matter how much surgery they have or how many chemicals they ingest or even whether someone on the sidewalk calls them “miss.”

      • Motherhood Says:

        Debra, there is no such thing as gender—it is at best a grammatical category and now some pomo bullshit favored by people who really never wanted to read that much in the first place but still play smarty pants at the cocktail party. By equality you mean “all samey” in other words you mean that the guy with a dick and wig is the same as me and my daughters because he says so because he “feels” like it because some half wit MSW signed off on it. I have no problems saying no to that notion of equality because he is not the same as me or any other human female. This is not a human rights issue. This is a fad and a mental illness that people adopt and rally for as a cause celeb because they themselves are narrow minded and conformist. And this little cause allows them to never have to face that nasty fact about themselves–it plays well at parties. You want to really be good and help well there is hardly a shortage of women and children. These guys got the whole LBG backing them, the have greedy medical people backing and drug companies–hardly an oppressed group. These guys are an industry, a money machine. It also happens that almost all have of whole mosaic of issues, personality disorders. They are sick and violent and while there maybe be a few that are not a threat I am not taking any chances with my safety. Nor am I cashing out my rights because some guy “feels” If I did that I would have been screwed by every dick claiming blue balls. Nobody wants to partner with them and for good reason. Grow up and learn to respect women. Think about what it feeds in you to support these guys. There is a huge difference between a little orphan bunny and a scorpion. And I don’t me to sound harsh but really you need to think—for real, think. Stop wanting to be good. What is going to happen is these guys will in the end will look just like every other trendy condition and those that supported this will make the Nazi medical experiments look like spa treatments. A whole generation of kids destroyed. Don’t for a second imagine yourself on the vanguard of anything that

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        First of all, use a person’s proper name when it is right in front of you. Secondly, there will continue to be a divide when there are people who insist on denying the reality of the lives of thousands of people and want to regulate them as “other” and “perverse” and somehow “less than” or not worthy. IF there are people engaging in threats online or in person, then that is a different issue but I do not see a threat from the trans-community. What I see here are people attacking others who disagree with them, rather than doing something that is constructive. I do plenty for women and girls, and have done for a long time. It is my life’s work. But I do stand in solidarity with others that share in making the world a better place for women and children, people of color, queers, and animals, however they identify.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        “IF there are people engaging in threats online or in person, then that is a different issue but I do not see a threat from the trans-community.”

        So says DEBORAH (for Christ’s sake be SURE to spell her name right!), who very obviously has not read very many posts here. I think it’s you who needs to get educated, Deborah. It’s all here for the clicking, if you could be bothered to do so.

    • Motherhood Says:

      Deborah,

      Please forgive me I misspelled you name. I apologize. I am not denying reality. I am stating I will not accept a male’s delusion as a reality that I function under. He can think whatever he wants. But he will not and should not expect any women to believe him. I am a free human and I do not have to believe or accept it or respect anything that I decide not to. I have read enough and seen enough to be confident in saying these guys are full of shit and dangerous to women. Save the “oh that’s so bigoted” for someone with guilt issues and who is easily manipulated and into trendy conformity. I am permitted to make informed judgments—that are not all full of PC and POMO jargon and “no think.” I will not accept a male in my spaces. I will not pretend they are women—it is rather obvious 99% of the time they are male. There psychiatric condition is not my problem. Seriously I would much rather lend my compassion to schizophrenics that don’t rape and murder women. And again this is within my right to protect my children and myself. It might behoove you to look up the death threats they send to women. Currently there are 411 serving time for rape and murder and CA alone. There is a high rate of sociopathic behavior along with all manner of personality disorder. If that is your new human rights movement—enjoy. I think the Germans tried that back in the 30’s and 40’s. Sooner or later the truth will out. With these men it will be sooner rather than later. They can’t keep their shit together long enough. They blow into violent rages and then they go to prison. Every time they make a threat at lest 15 state reps get a copy. In addition every time one is arrested for a violent or a sex crime that goes to state reps. The APA is running for the hills. They wanted attention—they got it in spades. They are narcissistic misogynists that get off femulating and threatening women. I owe them nothing. They should expect nothing. And no attempts to shame, silence or threaten are going to change that. I think that is why many women keep their identity a secrete—these dudes are dangerous—really dangerous.

      • GallusMag Says:

        “Please forgive me I misspelled you name.” My goodness! Whatever you do, don’t “misgender” her! lol

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        I made no statement as to gender. I just find it odd having my name, which was spelled out right there in print, being spelled incorrectly, or as another person did, change it to a nickname which I don’t even use. At least I use my real name and am not mean or snarky, which some people seem to think validates their points but really show how pathetic they really are.

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        WE are all free to think what we want and the right to feel what we feel. We happen to disagree on a number of points. It is unfortunate. I am not trying to be PC or conform to anything but what I believe to be true. good luck.

      • GallusMag Says:

        It’s the internet DB. Let it go.

      • Motherhood Says:

        GM, hahha no I would never misgender. Yes your real name–use it well. Very open and honest. You must feel very safe. Unlike women that dare not role play in the sexual fantasy. I personally do not wish to be getting death and rape threats. Or have my place of employment harassed with unhinged screeds from fetishistic men who love to play victim as they beat women down. I made a mistake really no biggy if that is what “invalidates points” for you than you have no capacity for critical analysis–big surprise. I am snarky but I am not mean–I am honest. There is no middle ground, no spin to put on it. That you think that is “mean” speaks volumes.What is pathetic is women that imagine these men are safe for women . But hey women were writing love letters to Ted Bundy and some nut married him. Men like these always have women to back them

      • Deborah Bell Says:

        Anyone who makes threats are acts to harm women are wrong in their actions. Doing that certainly invalidates any critical argument they may have. I do know think men who have transitioned do so for a fetish. I can only go my my own experiences and observations. If there is in fact a problem or a danger to women (or anyone) by transgendered people then I do want to know about it and would gladly take part in countering it. It just is not a reality anywhere I know. I think there is still far to much discrimination towards women and violence as well. I will continue to work to help women with that.

      • red Says:

        Yah, being polite and getitng names and pronouns right scores you points with the rapey crowd while you stump for their appropriation and fetishization of female. Rock on fool.

      • Old Music Says:

        “women and children, people of color, queers, and animals”

        Oh dear …

      • Old Music Says:

        Not to mention, I’m pretty sure animals don’t ‘identify’ as anything, they simply are.

  31. Sharon Says:

    “What would it take to resolve the great divide between the practice of genderism (“Transgender”) and the liberation of women (“Feminism”) ?”

    I don’t envision this divide ending anytime soon. Transgender is just one part of the war on women, and make no mistake there is a war going on against women. The current explosion in transgender/gender queer theory are part of the neoliberal, post modern backlash against second wave feminism. First and second wave feminists came from an entirely different period in time. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher ushered in neoliberal economics with its focus on globalization. During this period of time, the gap between the rich and poor exploded.

    Gail Dines has an excellent video that explains how neo-liberalism/post modernism gutted feminism . This is the particular period in time that we live in. We can’t separate this from feminism in general.

    Neo-Liberalism and the Defanging of Feminism


    .

    Another very powerful and emotionally numbing book by Gail Dines is “Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality”. Reading through it felt like a kick in the gut. It will depress the reader. I was so emotionally drained reading through the chapters. This is happening to females, and someone has to describe this horror. Females are being all but tortured for the entertainment of males, and it’s a lucrative commercial enterprise.. If women want to understand what is going on, this is an important book to read. As Dines points out, pornography is being slowly filtered down to main stream society, and it effects how girls and young women dress, act, and view themselves. Hyper-feminization and the trafficking of women is rampant.

    In this particularly misogynistic period in history that find ourselves in, all females can do is carefully chronicle all the damage being done to the female sex. We owe this to future generations of girls and women. People living fifty or a hundred years from now will look back at what we did and did not do. What will they think of gender-non-conforming children being sterilized through the use of GnRH agnosits followed by cross gender hormones at age 16, etc? Lesbians must record the lesbian eugenics via FTM “transitioning” that we know is occurring.

    Or, perhaps it’s only going to get worse. This is a possibility. No one can predict the future. . If science and technology advance to the point to where humans are routinely cloned, and sexual reproduction isn’t necessary, will biological females even be necessary? If females exist at all, they could be complete Stepford Wives of sorts. Artificially created to meet certain standards of beauty and functionality. I know that this is science fiction, but thirty years ago who would have thought that anyone would use drugs to deliberately delay puberty in children because of a psychiatric diagnosis.

    Again, I don’t see the divide closing anytime soon. I see my role in all of this is to carefully chronicle what is occurring.


    • Thank you so much for posting this video. It is utterly fantastic, Gail Dines has a knack for hitting things right on the head and her analysis is again, spot on here.

      I would take your point even further though and say that pornography is already in the mainstream of my peers. I was raped and my rapist made pornography of him raping me. I am not the only one who he has done this to and he is not the only man who is doing this.

      I don’t think it’s any coincidence that during a massive backlash against the gains from our feminist foremothers we are seeing a large number of younger and older autogynophiliacs and young men and women who defy sex-role-stereotypes being forced into the limiting constraints of the trans* umbrella.

      It is a constant source of frustration for how many of my peers eat this shit up like it’s free lollies. Embracing sex-role-stereotypes and woman-hating pornography are not going to help anyone, and they are especially going to screw over girls and women in the process.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Sharon, I just bought that book by Gail Dines! I haven’t even had a chance to crack it open yet. Now I’m a little afraid to…nah, I’ll still read it. Best to know the FACTS.

  32. K Says:

    I think women who identify themselves as FTM should be listened to and discussed more. born, biological women who are ‘transgender’ or whatever. talking it out always helps a little bit with understanding and I think there needs to be more understanding

    I don’t really care about MTF tbh. (born male or whatever the fuck it is.) the truth always comes out. damage has been going on, been done and will continue, but truth is the truth. but on a related note, I think men choosing to remove their genitals will mean less rape and I want no rape.

  33. a reader Says:

    Whichever commenter it is that runs this nonsense:

    [the-gallus-mag-cast-of-non-characters/- link to Lesbimen site removed, sorry reader- GM]

    has clearly had their feelings hurt. Awww, muffin. A little bit of critical thinking and they have to try and be nasty on the internet.


  34. one practical step as a “middle ground” might be trans people agreeing to use the terminology of “male to trans” and simply “trans” instead of ever saying “trans woman.” If they could remove the word “woman” from their self-descriptions, this would allow them to take a step towards organizin g, seeking appropriate bathrooms/ locker rooms/prison accommodations and in general organize while still respecting wbw.

    • Survivorthriver Says:

      Agreed, quite logical.

    • red Says:

      Then what’s the point, for them? They’re sexual fetishists.

      They aren’t interested in being some third group. They want the space we occupy: female.

      ” If they could remove the word “woman” from their self-descriptions, this would allow them to take a step towards organizing, seeking appropriate bathrooms/ locker rooms/prison accommodations and in general organize while still respecting wbw.”

      • mieprowan Says:

        If the whole point is a hostile takeover of women’s spaces, and they claim we are fomenting violence by not letting them in, that’s obviously BS already, but to hand back the idea that they could be some third thing calls them out on it.

    • truck driver logic Says:

      Muse sick,
      Prison accommodations? Snort… almost choked on my popcorn. Love this. You are sick. Thank you.

  35. Bev Jo Says:

    This was a brilliant example of why we want women only space and why Gallus Mag rarely allows the trans cult members to take up space.

    “The Great Divide” is illusion, with real women on one side, working to make a less female-hating world, with people on the other side who are living a fantasy that is not and can never be real.

    Men can’t be women. “Transwomen” is a contradiction in terms and is as real as “transspecies.” It’s all about narcissistic fantasy built on the oppression of girls and women. We don’t take “trans-lizards” seriously, in spite of the money spent and surgery and tattooing. Why should we take the equally ridiculous idea of men posing as women while not remotely thinking, writing, talking, acting, or looking like women?

    The solution is what many of us have been doing for most of our lives: Saying no to men who oppress females.

    When Lesbian Separatists were bullied about why we won’t spend time with men, we answered that there are millions of women in the world we have yet to meet, so why would we give our precious energy to our oppressors?

  36. red Says:

    What a stupid person. I read that crap over there. A woman who has birthed two children isn’t a woman. Right. Please let this be over before I reach my stale by date.

  37. SJC Says:

    From Feminists: An understanding that when a person has sex-based dysphoria, telling that dysphoric person that they’re experiencing that pain only because of a patriarchy is dismissive. It invalidate’s that person’s experience. Especially if that person has been decidedly feminist and takes an active role in trying to improve conditions for women. I feel radfems will need to accept that feeling the need to medically change yourself into the closest approximation of the opposite sex is not a normal reaction to societal sex oppression, and that it may be the best course of action to relieve certain discomforts associated with the abnormalities surrounding sex-characteristic dysphoria. At the core, I feel radfems need to see transgender people as people with a unique mental issue, and not as people who are an active affront to the movement of gender equality.

    From Trans-people: The understanding that having certain negative feelings about your own body does not entitle you to access services and events for women. Transgender people will need to accept that their personal internal image does not match up with the reality of their physical being, and that they shouldn’t get special privileges over regular men or women. They will have to accept that not every person or situation is set up to deal with their special circumstances. They will also need to address whether their concepts of men and women are purely superficial in regards to gender roles on a personal level, because I feel that transitioning just to justify acting or dressing a certain way is insulting to both sexes and is contrary to many key points of feminism.

    I’m coming from the perspective of a transgender person born female and currently in medical transition. I find feminism very valuable, including radical feminism because it provides much needed criticism in regards to laws and medical practices pertaining to transgender people. I feel like oftentimes agreeing with radical feminists on issues like children transitioning is isolating in that the LGBTQ+ community has largely disregarded redirect from anyone expressing a negative view on relaxing transgender related medical guidelines. I also feel like the feminist community is often frightening for people like myself in that I always worry that my body and decisions I’ve made to alter it will offend others (which is disempowering, especially after spending most of my life feeling that males like my father and boyfriend were in charge of my body).

    • Mortified Says:

      SJC, thank you for an excellent post. I haven’t seen you here before. I hope you hang around, visit us again.

      Your comments about being dismissive of sex-based dysphoria hit home. I have been guilty of that. And you’re right, I should (and will) change. Thank you.

      You would like for us (not that I can in any way speak for the people at this blog) to accept “that [medical transition/”sex change therapy”] may be the best course of action to relieve certain discomforts associated with the abnormalities surrounding sex-characteristic dysphoria.”

      I don’t doubt that it seemed that way to you. But I cannot imagine that it really could be the best course of action. I don’t think it’s even a good one. You have made yourself a pawn of the medical and pharmaceutical industries. They don’t have your true interests at heart.

      I think we here at GenderTrender know that all TGs, even all M2Ts, are not necessarily pervert devils. Unfortunately, quite a few of the ones which make themselves most visible do seem to be in that category. This blog has quite a rogue’s gallery, and those rogues are indeed enemies of women and Feminism. (I’d go further to venture that they are enemies of God.)

      So I in turn ask you to see them and to understand why this blog came to exist. You don’t want to be associated with the likes of Darlie and oopster.

      • Chazz Says:

        “You would like for us (not that I can in any way speak for the people at this blog) to accept “that [medical transition/”sex change therapy”] may be the best course of action to relieve certain discomforts associated with the abnormalities surrounding sex-characteristic dysphoria.”” – Mortified

        Exactly…. By that logic, medically assisted starvation would be the best course of action for anorexics.

        It’s telling how the logic behind this argument crumbles when applied to other forms of body dysphoria.

      • SJC Says:

        I wonder what interesting ways radfems would suggest ‘fixing’ people who would rather die over not medically transitioning. It seems to me that there’s this arrogant notion that people like myself haven’t already spent years trying everything else and only ending up worse off until medical intervention. It’s hard to convey exactly how much stress is involved in trying to brainwash yourself out of what is probably a neurological problem. The harder you try, the more you fail, the more you blame yourself for not finding whatever magic ideas you need to stop the pain. I don’t look at it as a doctor telling an anorexic to starve, I look at it like a schizophrenic person taking their anti psychotics even though it harms their mental capacity because otherwise they can’t even function.

      • GallusMag Says:

        @SJC- Women are not your “mommy” and can’t fix you. You should talk to other men like yourself and work on healing, the same way women work among ourselves. Talk to the guys here:
        http://retransition.org/

      • SJC Says:

        @GallusMag, I’m kind of surprised you would be respectful enough to call me a man, so maybe you’ve mistaken me for MTF (I’m FtM). I was just trying to express a bit of where a trans person would come to the conclusion that meds were the end all. I don’t expect any of the women here actually could ‘fix’ me ( I don’t think I need to be fixed anymore, and I don’t think anyone would be capable of it in the first place), it was just that although they don’t relate to what I’ve gone through they express that medical transition was the wrong decision.

        Your separatist views on women and men speak to your radical ways, though I’m not sure if it pertains only to healing or if you would apply it to everything. Would you say that men and women should be separated in most of life? Just curious and I really hope I don’t sound malicious, because the last thing I want to do is start an argument or offend a bunch of people when all I want is some wider perspective.

      • Lint Says:

        SJC, as Gallus says, we are not your mommy. We have no obligation to fix you, soothe you, or give you answers. For all I care you can drop off the face of the earth. As far as men having massive temper tantrums and threatening suicide over not being able to transition… LOL is my only response. My mind can’t even begin to imagine the level of entitlement that men have… like they are owed any sort of medical procedure. I wonder what happens to them when they figure out they will never be women, only trans.

        At any rate, I don’t care how much you whine and boo hoo about your illness. The fact is you are a man. No one put a gun to your head and made you ape us in an absurd charade. You did that all by yourself and now you want sympathy for it? I don’t think so. It is not my job to rescue you from your own mess.

      • GallusMag Says:

        @SJC- all the rest of the websites in the blogroll on my right sidebar are for female transitioners. Feel free to check them out. You may also read further here to get a handle on my views. Welcome to the site.

      • SJC Says:

        So my earlier comment questioning how feminists would ‘fix’ trans people has been gravely misconstrued and I seem to have stepped on toes. Feminists view trans people as an affront to them, as far as I can tell, so I imagined that certain feminists want the trans affront problem ‘fixed’ and trans people to stop being dysphoric and stop seeking medical treatment. Since I can’t imagine any other options for getting rid of the feelings that make a person trans other than, y’know, the usual things that folks try (therapy, reading feminist blogs, self-loathing, blaming internalization, etc.) , I figured I’d put forth the question as a rhetorical and provocative statement, which somehow got translated by ya’ll as “Whiny tranny begging for help.” Nope. Sorry, that wasn’t my intent.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Sorry SJC- one of the things I dislike most about running a blog is that at times I am forced to moderate comments while I am in the middle of doing other things and/or do not have time to reply personally. You have not stepped on any toes or offended anyone. No reason to apologize. I approved your comment and made a brief response without having taken the time to re-read the thread it was attached to. My bad! Thanks for understanding.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I’m curious if you see Nathan Verhelst as a “Whiny tranny begging for help.” Wonder if she ran up against this shaming in the F2T community.

      • SJC Says:

        Nathan Verhelst’s euthanasia was pretty sad to hear about. I’m not sure what happened in his life, but clearly at some point enough horrible things happened that he felt he no other options. His surgery didn’t resolve his problems like they had hoped. I question if the doctors who agreed to euthanize Nathan ever considered trying to help him heal from his anguish after surgery, or if they too saw him as the monster he felt he was. I don’t know how I would’ve helped him. It’s tragic and sad and I wish more had been done and that he wouldn’t have felt death was the only option, I wouldn’t categorize him as ‘whiny tranny’. Really, I wouldn’t categorize anyone as that. I’m good friends with plenty of de-transitioned people who have felt unwhole after seeking the treatment they thought would fix them and I’ve supported everything. I can’t pinpoint why transition worked to help me but did not for them. I feel it’s important to hear their experiences and help them because so often the voices of those people are muffled by a larger trans community who indeed selfishly want transition to be seen as a cure-all, perhaps in hopes of lessening the stigma that is part of medical transition.

        It would be incredibly selfish of me or any trans person to dismiss the people who backed out of transition, or the people who are thinking of backing out of transition. I would never put my desire for acceptance above hearing others’ tribulations.

        However, if I am accused of whining at people I will do my best to clear up my intentions, because I have no desire to burden an enrage strangers by pleading for their insights.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Re: “affront to feminism” and “neurological gender”:

      Those who support women’s liberation do not believe that human feelings, affinities, abilities and intellectual capacity unrelated to sexual reproduction (dolls for girls, trucks for boys) are neurologically caused by sexual reproduction. Instead, we believe such cultural sex-roles are violently enforced in order to ritualize and perpetuate male social domination of females so that those who are unable to produce offspring (males) can violently control those who do produce offspring (females).

      Genderists (social conservatives, religious fundamentalists) believe the opposite: that sex-roles of male domination and female submission are biologically innate (“biological essentialism” “gender essentialism”).

      Trans-Genderists are a sect of genderists who believe cultural sex-roles (male domination, female submission) are so central to the human endeavor that non-compliance is a birth defect to be treated by medically and surgically disguising the biology of human reproduction (sexual dimorphism) in cases of “incongruence”. Further distinguishing trans-genderists from genderists is that transgenderists claim non-believers infringe on their human rights simply by non-believing.

      This is why transgenderists lobby against women’s liberation and try to outlaw all feminist activism, gatherings, organizations, writings, music festivals, book groups, homosexuality, women’s health services, title IX sports programs, sex-segregated prisons and locker rooms and restrooms and hospital bed assignments, agencies serving female victims of male sexual violence, support groups, websites, conferences, caucuses, media representation, freedom of speech.

      This is why transgenderists call feminism “hate speech”.


  38. Thank you for creating a space for this dialogue Gallus.

    I think that in many cases, education, better support and opportunities combined with unconditional love will make a world of difference. This is what girls and women need.

    I think that we might actually get somewhere if people stopped using the term “gender” and started saying what it really is – sex role stereotypes.

    I also believe that pornography does play a significant role in warping the minds of my peers (and younger,) combined with the pluralistic post-modernity bullshit that seems to be regurgitated in no short supply in tertiary education.

    This individual “I choose my choice” clap trap has got to go, ASAP, and I think there also needs to be a willingness on the part of MTCF to acknowledge that the transition process is such a huge symptom of capitalism it’s not even funny.

    • Annie Says:

      “I think that we might actually get somewhere if people stopped using the term “gender” and started saying what it really is – sex role stereotypes.”
      Exactly! A man in a dress, whether he’s had surgery or not and whether he calls himself a transsexual or transgender is still reinforcing a sex role stereotype.
      I recently had a conversation with one of my teenaged daughters about this. She’s buying into the whole “always felt like a woman” thing while allowing that many male to trans have an unrealistic stereotrypical idea of what a woman really is. Very frustrating.


      • @Annie Yes, I think a lot of the problem is the deliberate distortion of language, gender sounds innocuous but if you call the turd what it is, a sex-role-stereotype, suddenly it doesn’t sound so harmless.

        I used to buy into that “always felt like a woman” schtick too but thank for logic, reason and the empathy that is present amongst Radical Feminists!

        Maybe just ask her about what she thinks sex-role-stereotypes are and if they are true or not. Just get her to start asking questions and then the rest should just happen naturally.

      • Ave Says:

        “whether he calls himself a transsexual or transgender is still reinforcing a sex role stereotype.”
        what? that’s bullshit.
        Some males don’t want to do what’s stereotypically associated with their sex. so what if they want to do the opposite (or neither at all for that matter)? If they acknowledge that they are male, then what’s the harm in it?
        And it’s funny how you say it’s “unrealistic stereotypical idea” yet look at the media or out anywhere in society and you see tons of women in makeup and dresses.

    • Tobysgirl Says:

      Very glad to see someone mention the role that (consumer) capitalism plays in all this. Sometimes I appear to myself to be more acceptant of my disabled and damaged body than others appear to be of their healthy bodies; always some medico/pharma ready to exploit people’s unhappiness.


      • @Tobysgirl
        It seems to be something that gets forgotten a lot. But being a woman (or a man,) isn’t about buying pink crap, harmful cosmetics or footwear.

        I think it’s one of the main reasons why the trans ideology is ultimately incomparable with feminism, because feminism seeks to dismantle this patriarchal institutions/ideologies of which capitalism is definitely one.

        I’ve never understood how bragging about spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars was meant to be proof of one’s womanhood. It just reeks of classism, especially with the majority of people in poverty are actually women.

      • Ave Says:

        @ kill your enemies
        They don’t even make money in actual jobs. THey all get it from doing porn, webcamming, and prostitution errr “escorting.”
        Not only do they use makeup as “proof” of being a ‘real woman/trans” they also say they are “real women/trans” from how many men they fuck…after all, if they weren’t real, why would men fuck them?
        it’s ridiculous with how they are

    • Survivorthriver Says:

      “Sex role stereotypes” instead of “gender”, excellent point, right on.

  39. NAH Says:

    I said i wouldn’t do this.
    But i could not resist.

    In regards to darliegoddess


  40. The first few comments were so beautiful, and then it all just went away.

    That makes me sad.

    • K Says:

      that’s the problem with ‘beauty’, it goes away and makes you sad!

      what is it that was so beautiful, exactly?

  41. Kat Says:

    Hello everyone,

    Interestingly on another form this topic came up unintentionally, and so if you don’t mind I’d like to bring some of that thought here.

    I think if we can all agree that trans women, and born women don’t have the same socialization, and that in some cases that can be beneficial, and in some cause it can invite unique abuses. If we can agree that in some cases people really do have a medical disorder that necessitates them to transition, but that they should be absolutely sure to challenge their upbringing and the concept of gender. And if they do those things they can be considered women. I think this might help bring a peace of sorts, or at least I hope. I think a bit of understanding combined with the willingness to actually listen, and compassion for the other person’s side/feelings might be able to see the conflict defused.

    But then I only speak for myself and a lot of people, on both sides, seem to be unable or unwilling to swallow that pill.

    Thank you,
    -Kat

    • Ann Says:

      I see no reason why a medical disorder necessitates that a man try to become a woman. I do not even see why it necessitates transition. I can understand discomfort with one’s sex characteristics but I fail to see why this means someone should try to be the other sex. Being uncomfortable with one’s penis does not make one female.

      Why in the world is surgery and hormones and transitioning seen as the one and only solution? No therapy, no nothing. Just transition! Just indulge the delusion!
      It’s unfair to just expect women to roll over and accept men who want to appropriate female physical characteristics for whatever reason. Even if they examine their concept of gender and socialization. Having a medical condition is not an excuse to do what you like no matter the consequences.

      Being female is the only requirement to being a woman. Sex has such a huge impact on the way women are treated from birth and people want to hide this fact under the rug and pretend that the only thing that matters is ‘feeling like a woman’.

      It’s always women that are expected to make compromises, sacrifice their needs, ‘be compassionate’ and take in whatever sad sack that shows up on the doorstep. I can’t take it anymore.

      • Kat Says:

        Ann,

        I’m sorry if I was unclear, the things you said certainly address a lot of the ways in which trans people argue their position, but I see it as being a little different so I’ll try to articulate the way I think trans people ought approach themselves.

        I also don’t know why the medical disorder made me feel that I need to be female. If I did I assure you I would have stopped feeling that way rather than transitioning. All I know is the reality of the situation that something about me told me that what I am (male) is not correct. And if it were about gender as it is for most it doesn’t necessitate transition. At all. If its about how you look and act changing your physiology seems silly, just act the way you want to act. But for some section of us something about us or maybe even just me, makes it so that I cannot be happy being male. Sadly with modern technology I cannot ultimately change that, but doing everything I can does make me more able to accept my situation. It’s not just a genital thing either, I can’t really explain it and I know that is a failing of mine but its an issue with my state of being. It definitely sounds a lot like BIID to me, if that makes sense.

        And I don’t think those are the only solutions, I think therapy has to be the first step, and not doing so risks the health of people who simply don’t confirm to gender norms. The only people who should transition are those doing it for physical psychological sexual incongruity issues. Not because they reject their gender role, and not because they want to be pretty or have access to women. And you don’t have to indulge me, its your right to call me what you want, I was only saying for peace to exist between the two groups, calling trans women men makes that impossible. But again you have every right to do so if you feel the need or desire to.

        And I don’t expect women to roll over, I spent a lot of introspective time challenging my understanding of myself, my upbringing, and what gender and sex means. Even so you don’t have to accept me, it just will be very difficult for me to work with you (though I’ll work for the same goals) if you call me a man at every chance you get. We will just not get along at that point, though it needn’t cause animosity. If you don’t want me around, I will respect that and I hope you will do the same.

        And I don’t think men should be able to appropriate female characteristics, nor should people be permitted to transition for any reason. Intense therapy is needed, and if any other treatment shows success they should do that first. Transitioning should be a last step when nothing else resolves a person’s issues. I’ll admit that I don’t understand what you mean about acting like there are no consequences. What did you mean?

        I don’t think anyone can deny that the way females are raised is different than trans women and that it is definitely really important to discuss, I will never argue that. I don’t want that under the rug, I’d like it to be an important discourse. That said I also think its important to note that people in my situation do often suffer uniquely. It is simply disingenuous to say that we are raised and socialized exactly like males. But again that only responds to my specific subset of the trans umbrella (I wish the terms were more separate and different it makes it confusing for me) most trans women, have normal male socialization and seemingly never abandon any part of it. And that is why I am here, to help arm myself with more knowledge to challenge that.

        I don’t expect you to make compromises or be compassionate, you can do as you like, but if our groups at large are to ever agree, both sides will need to make concessions. Both sides will need to show compassion and understanding to the other. I know those who represent me are just as at fault of not doing so as anyone.

        Thank you
        -Kat

      • mieprowan Says:

        Kat: my first comment on this thread was that maybe we should be thinking more about gender castes, as opposed to bio sex and sexual orientation. The problems we women have here with trans are to a great extent about appropriation of Woman.

        Lots of radfems say their goal is to get rid of gender entirely. This is not workable as a short term goal, to say the least. Maybe we should also be looking at what purpose it serves outside of the context of men grinding down women. The classic radfem stance is that gender is bad because it hurts women, the classic (non-perv) trans stance is that gender as it currently exists culturally, is somehow inadequate, but in some way necessary.

        There are women here who think the whole thing is a culturally induced fetish. I don’t know that they’re wrong. But if gender is that important to men who don’t want to be men, we need you to redefine yourselves outside of Woman, too. All boundaries must be respected.

      • Kat Says:

        Mieprowan,

        It doesn’t seem to allow me to reply directly to you so I hope you see this.

        Your idea does sound interesting, I am curious though how it would work/how it would be implemented. What would society look like in that world? If its just in the rough idea state though that’s okay too, it does sound interesting. I’m just curious how an overt caste system would be less abusive than a covert one. Or maybe you mean that’s your way to explain what exists now haha. Please let me know!

        And I definitely understand your feelings about appropriation, for example I have recently become aware of men who use castration rings to remove their genitals, cycle male and female exogenous hormones to grow breasts while staying masculine, and ultimately get a small hole placed where their genitals used to be. I’m sure the way I feel about this is very similar to the way you feel about me. I just don’t know how to resolve that. I act not out of sexual reasons, nor reasons of gender (oh I can’t wear dresses if I’m a guy/I like pink I must be a girl!) but for reasons of some psychological/physiological/developmental disorder that neither I nor anyone else yet has been able to quantify. If you cannot think of that as a medical issue, but instead still insist it is merely a personal/entitlement/appropriation thing I really do apologize. I don’t think there is a way to resolve that if it is your position. Nothing I say can change the way you feel about what I have done. For what it’s worth I only do to my body what I need to be happy, and don’t project or expect anyone to be anything like me. I don’t define women by myself, I just define myself in a way that I can live with. If that makes sense.

        I wouldn’t say I subscribe to the trans thoughts about gender. Trans is a confusing group for me, it is so large and so many very different expressions exist that each one argues an entirely different thing to make society accept them. As a result society as a whole finds us hypocritical, or at the very least contrived and confused. I think gender is always bad, especially for women and girls, and that doing away with it is for the betterment of society and the people it is made up of. And I agree that that isn’t a realizeable short term goal. I think that it does benefit my umbrella group as well if it goes away. People are free to be who they want, act or dress how they want, without harming their bodies, without making dubious arguments, and without harming women. There are still those, like me, whose issue is with our physical realities rather than our social identities. Without at least doing all we can to un-male ourselves our lives are not really very worthwhile.

        And those women are right in thinking that. As a member of the community I can easily say that most of them do it from a place of fetish or lack of understanding of gender. Though there are some who do not. Gender is not important to me (except insofar as it is harmful and needs to go away), it is my biological sex that is the issue. I know it cannot in this day and age be changed, though there are interesting advancements in that direction. But doing everything I can to get away from a male body makes me progressively more happy. The less male I am the more happy I am. That is all I know. If we lived in a society without gender, though it would still hurt me personally I were socially considered a man, because that is the one and only thing I don’t want to be. Removing myself from the equation a person in my position identifying as a man, in society today, becomes an even greater risk for violence and abuse. We stand the risk that women face (if we appear as women, men will think that of us and treat us accordingly), but also in that world as men who don’t conform. I know in my childhood that the latter is probably something I wouldn’t survive at this point in my life.

        You have every right to consider me how you will, I can’t or won’t stop you, but at the end of the day if your sticking point is to consider me a man I don’t see any way we could work together. While I will still work to the same ends as you, I will have to remove myself from these discussions and your ideology. It is not healthy for me mentally to work with people who call me a man at every turn. So I will respect your wishes, and distance myself from you and your movement. If I spoke for all trans people I would hope that you do the same but I know that most aren’t as amenable and will probably react the way they were raised dictates.

        Anyways I hope some day you come to realize that there are some people who do transition for legitimate reason, and that we don’t mean or intend any harm. In fact most of us, as women, support and want to be a part of your movement. It is the 80-88%+ of the ridiculous umbrella group that cause the problem. Another movement I’d like to distance myself from, but due to lack of social understanding cannot.

        Thank you,
        -Kat

      • mieprowan Says:

        Kat: Language is a significant part of the problem. Originally women were more accepting of M2T’s, but we are gradually seeing the legal ramifications of codifying referring to you by female pronouns, and none of them benefit women. Also it’s confusing. A third gender caste would have to invent their own pronouns.

        I am personally far from convinced SRS is a valid medical treatment under any circumstances. I do not think it’s possible to understand body dysphorias outside of the culture we are embedded in. I see no evidence that they are biologically induced, and these treatments are expensive and require ongoing maintenance. I also see no evidence that they stabilize psychological problems.

        There is plenty of evidence that women at times suffer from such as lack of adequate prenatal care. You can guess where my priorities lie.

        The culture is horribly binary and I do not question the idea that some men suffer from it too. I don’t see gender castes as the answer, but as you note, they do seem to exist, or something like them, in a rudimentary, non-binary manner. The background noise of fads and pornographic fixations makes it next to impossible to tease them out, though, and anything and anyone who does not conform to the binary rules is punished in some manners.

        But there are other cultures that handle this differently, and if I identified as trans I’d be looking into that, if only for perspective. To truly invent another gender caste would require thought and creativity, though, not just copypasting another culture’s caste that really has nothing to do with this culture.

    • Deborah Bell Says:

      Well said Kat. I believe that people should be considered what they self-determine themselves to be. We all do need to challenges the stereotypes and concepts regarding gender.

      • Tobysgirl Says:

        Deborah, people self-determine themselves to be all sorts of things. Most people, while supporting horrible acts done in their names, consider themselves kind and generous people (oh, whoops, only kind and generous to people who look and think just like they do). I do not live in a world where I can blindly accept people’s self-appraisal because I have unfortunately found that most people spend their lives fooling themselves and trying to fool everyone else. I would strongly suggest exploring GM’s site and her many references to men with criminal histories demanding they be recognized as women. It’s nice you live someplace where you can accept people’s self-identification, but I’ve never lived there.

  42. Survivorthriver Says:

    I think feminists and lesbians should opt out of the LGBTQ fray. It’s irritating that our city’s LGBT org has a trans as their “L”,. It’s irritating that women already have enough burden on our backs without the M2T fetishists (think that’s the greatest discernment made) invade spaces, threaten born women, make up labels for us (cis BS), and force everybody to collude with their jendah delusion.

    I agree with the poster here that abandoning the word transwoman, and embracing your transvestite, transsexual and private fetishes as born males attempting to broaden sex role stereotypes would be a step forward. Instead of co-opting our born sex XX woman.

    To own their own truth without co-opting a gay movement that struggled to build a rainbow bridge of gay men and lesbians that I do not think was ever EASY, that would be a step forward.

    To stop dissembling gender BS against which born women struggled, organized and worked for painfully slow progress would be another step.

    I’d support queers, but, not so that they have rights over born women, nor to invade our private space.

    I also think that trans threats against feminists should be prosecuted.

    Jendah politics has seriously screwed up truth with delusion, and I refuse to collude.

    I wish all beings had peace and the ingredients for happiness. But, not at my and my daughte3rs expense. In my own city, I wish to invite one M2T to go away Katie Lynn, leave our women’s only spaces free of your peen flaunting in front of our young daughters. Get off your women’s council board, you are a troublemaker and have dragged down a group of women that have worked together for decades.

    Can we not re-build women’s only spaces in a private venue away from these troublemakers? That’s what we had to do last summer, but “he” still invades a women’s nonprofit board. To the trans-colluders on that board, too bad your bleeding hearts have sold out born women. Get a grip.

    Hey, where in these spaces is there a discussion of the possibility of the environmental poisons in the form of hormone disrupters which feminize males, in our home furnishing and products? BPA was a known endocrine disrupter only lately banned. Right now there are flame retardants (TRIS and others) in our home furnishings that are feminizing males and poisoning all. Does the rise in gender confusion parallel the rise in environmental pollution and toxins? Therefore, doesn’t the root cause of reproductive medical issues need to be addressed in its underlying cause? Same with the rise of learning disorders that are linked to flame retardants and other environmental toxins in our homes, water and foods. Doesn’t kow-towing to endless special interest groups prevent the majority from hammering the chemical industry that is promulgating all these endocrine confusions? Can’t we get the poisons out of our homes and store shelves so that born women don’t get breast cancer as much, and our babies don’t have the reproductive adverse effects from pollution? (low sperm count, low sperm motility, epidemic of hypospadias in baby boys, etc etc etc)???

    Is this gender smokescreen preventing us from naming the chemical industry beast as a villain in our community poisoning, and creating new entitlement groups that masquerade as all these new flavors of XX and XY when they are outcome of environmental poisoning?

    So sorry if this is off post, I’m really grateful for the discussion, just hoped it okay to bring this up here. Anybody else thinking along these last lines? The broader public health implications on womens and children’s health by pollution is therefore masked by rights of the sub-groups who emerge in the aftermath of vast poisoning in our food, water and products?

    • Kat Says:

      Survivorthriver,

      I guess I’m just not seeing it from your perspective, how is dealing with the issues of one group, preventing people from resolving environmental concerns? One can easily be both a radical feminist and an environmentalist, as the can be trans and an environmentalist. Maybe I’m just misinformed here, I just don’t see any way that resources used to deal with the issues of trans people comes out of the pool of resources for environmental efforts.

      I certainly would love to see a way that no more people ever felt the need to transition. I don’t want anyone to go through those feelings and reject themselves so strongly. If preventing environmental damage also achieves that goal then that is two good things and I don’t think anyone could disagree.

      I’m sorry that I don’t understand. Would you mind explaining the link between supporting one decreasing support for the other?

      Thank you,
      -Kat

    • truck driver logic Says:

      Yes, Survivorthriver, I see exactly what you are talking about. Thank you for echoing my thoughts. Environmental poisons ingested by us to the point that we (androgynous folks) are bending gender weekly, one way or another, masculine to feminine, according to what we have ingested. And, yes, kids the poor things, no wonder they are confused about what sex they are. I would imagine these environmental toxins are EXTREMELY influential in their little bodies. I totally agree with your observations. Thank you for posting.

  43. Ambivalent Says:

    The divide existing between transgender and..well..everyone else is created BY transgendered people. The very term “cisgender” serves no other purpose than to be divisive. Might as well label us Jews and Philistines.

  44. margeaux Says:

    As a straight woman born woman, I don’t want to have to pretend that every Mt* is a woman. I’m not interested in being part of the masquerade party. And I don’t think tax money should pay for all this surgery, HRT, and so on.

  45. ashasha Says:

    As a gay man I never really anticipated that I would become a frequent reader of radfem blogs. But so far, these are the only sources where I can find some sanity when it comes to this gender circus that modern western societies have turned into. It really blows my mind how so many people fail to understand how the transexual agenda hurts women (straight or gay) and gay men by reinforcing gender roles. Gender as a social construct (and not as a simple synonym of “sex”) should be abolished. This is the only way to free homosexual people.

    • Mortified Says:

      Amen, Ash, and likewise, I wouldn’t really fit in here except for the “sanity” motif. Maybe eventually sanity will break out? For now we get shouted down and called “haters”.

      http://funfactzdaily.com/man-spent-200000-make-look-like-tiger/

      When “respect” means “play into someone’s fantasies,” what do we call this guy? Tony?🙂

      Haha, this link above showed me this “Random Fact!” …

      “The average male brain is physically about 10% bigger than the average female’s.”

      For some reason I find that very amusing.

  46. Violet Irene Says:

    Nope, no truce. The gender identity crap kills women:

    “I was the girl that nobody wanted,” Mr Verhelst told Het Laatste Nieuws newspaper in the hours before her death.
    “While my brothers were celebrated, I got a storage room above the garage as a bedroom. ‘If only you had been a boy’, my mother complained. I was tolerated, nothing more.”

    Mr Verhelst had hormone therapy in 2009, followed by a mastectomy and surgery to construct a penis in 2012. But “none of these operations worked as desired”.

    “I was ready to celebrate my new birth,” he told the newspaper. “But when I looked in the mirror, I was disgusted with myself. My new breasts did not match my expectations and my new penis had symptoms of rejection. I do not want to be… a monster. ”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/10346616/Belgian-killed-by-euthanasia-after-a-botched-sex-change-operation.html
    ******************************

    No backing down and no shutting up until this horrible trend is over.


  47. Hey GM, long time reader and first time commenter. I follow your blog and many trans blogs, and comment on none of them.

    I have made this “divide” you speak of (radfems vs trans) one of my personal projects, ever since one of my feminist mentors predicted the argument would be going on “forever”… I have always been amazed at her prescience. One of the ways I honor her passing (as well as the Second Wave that influenced me so strongly), is to remain dedicated to figuring it out. And in the last year I have believed it a lost cause. Something’s gotta give, as they say. I asked a simple question in THIS post (triggers, blahblah) and all hell broke loose. It was as this simple question came from one of you here at GT or from Cathy Brennan or Julie Bindel. As the Khmer Rouge would say, we were back to YEAR ONE, and none of my defenses of trans people in the past meant shit. I was instantly regarded as an enemy, and I was pretty floored. (HERE is my follow up, sorta kinda) Although I have been outspoken on the “trans side” of the debate since I started blogging in 2007, I did not get a single trans person willing to defend me by name and was heartily lambasted on Feministe, just for asking a question.

    And you know, I still didn’t get a fucking answer. I am still puzzled, since I feel like the ANSWER TO THE QUESTION (specifically: WHY do trans women care what radical feminists say? Hardly anyone else does, these days.) would answer YOUR question as well. The fact is: I don’t get it. This obsession they have with every jot and tittle of radfem blogging, every single FART from radfems, is just… incomprehensible to me. Why would they even care? I do not troll the net looking for lefty-haters, white-trash haters, hippie-haters, those who hate people living in the southern USA, those who despise baby-boomers, MRAs … and there are thousands of blogs dedicated to ALL of these dispositions. There is no shortage of haters; no dearth these blogs. Sometimes they leave hateful messages on my blog, or troll me, so I know they are out there. And I can go looking for people who hate me, if I choose. I value my sanity, so I usually don’t, although I have been known to leave a nasty comment on a stray right-wing or MRA blog from time to time… but it’s not a regular activity of mine. I think most of us are like that.
    So what’s going on? Why do the trans women (and it does seem to be women) constantly google google google radfem insults? I know they do this, since I get the google-search hits, just as you do.

    I continue to get hits on my “Andrea Dworkin on Transgender” post, and in fact, got at least one (and apparently, more since) seriously nasty Reddit thread started about it by young trans activists. (No good deed goes unpunished.) When I linked this post on a (now-deleted) lengthy thread during the endless Z Budapest pagan-conference foofaraw (in response to the accusation that every single Second Wave feminist theorist was trans-negative), I was viciously attacked in short order. WTF? Then it hit me: if you read the posts when the piece was first published (2009), some of the same people who were conciliatory and positive then (such as Genderbitch) are totally vicious and nasty now, and will not speak to radfems at all (while nonetheless writing about them constantly). Ida Hammer wrote a “reply” post to my Dworkin piece, that said “That’s not true! Andrea Dworkin was a horrible transphobe!”–with absolutely no footnotes and no proof or quotes at all, when I deliberately typed my little heart out, right out of her book. (Aside: I didn’t go to college, and I know better than to argue like that… is this what passes for scholarship in school these days? These young trans bloggers go to GOOD SCHOOLS, forgodsake.)

    It hit me hard, because it seemed they WANTED to believe the worst of Dworkin, despite what she actually wrote. Why would they want to do that?

    That’s when I realized it was not about the SUBJECT ITSELF, but about what radfems signify to trans women. This means there is little that can be done to bridge this divide. On Tumblr (which I only started following relatively recently), the word “radfem” seems to be shorthand for everything bad.

    Anyway… that was a bit of a rant.

    It seems that certain things are just true, and to even have this discussion in the first place, we have to acknowledge them and hopefully solve them:

    1) For trans people, names and pronouns are of crucial importance. This is non-negotiable.

    Observations: Trans people believe gender is :identity: — The fact that many of us from the Second Wave were/are old hippies who believe “identity” itself is a sham and worked to transcend it through drugs/meditation/sex/whatever… means we can not easily relate to this concept. (Tibetan Buddhism posits there is NO unchanging “self” for instance, and this is an unacknowledged article of faith in various elements of the counterculture and related subcultures, including some elements of cultural/woo feminism.) Identity is regarded as a constriction to overcome and transcend, not something to embrace and become imprisoned by. For Second Wave feminists, “identity” is part of the problem, and probably part of a capitalist plot to sell you more shit. (haha) Remember when hippies would answer the “race” question on forms, as “human”? That was a good-hearted attempt to transcend division, which has since been thoroughly discredited by the cognoscenti. Same thing is now true of trying to “abolish gender”–it is regarded as a bad thing, (like actually trying to abolish humans who have genders), rather than as an attempt to unite humanity and get rid of the categories that have historically divided us.

    2) For radical feminists, answering the question, “What do you mean when you say you FEEL like a woman/man?” is of crucial importance. This is non-negotiable.

    Observations: Feminists in the Second Wave answered this FOR OURSELVES; we are not asking anything that we did not expect to answer also. However, trans people see us as asking THEM something that they believe we take for granted as belonging to us. The fact is–radfems don’t believe this and never have; radfems don’t think gender or its extension “gender identity” is particularly real or valid FOR ANYBODY. In short, “degendering” people (what trans folks accuse radfems of doing) is something radfems think is good for everyone. Trans people are not being singled out for this, I was expected in early feminism to ask these questions of myself and jettison negative gendered behaviors. (My collective was fierce.)

    Anyway… since neither side (and yeah, lookin at you too, Gallus) is willing to give an inch on #1 and #2 ground rules/basics, I see no answer to the impasse. But I keep reading and studying, hoping to make some kind of breakthrough. Until we get #1 and #2 ACCOMPLISHED, no conversation can go any further. We remain stranded back at the starting gate.

    But if we could talk, well, I’d like to go back to #2. As a bisexual grandmother, I do not particularly “feel like a woman” and never really have. (Have never felt like a man either.) Thus, when someone says they DO feel this way, I don’t understand it and require clarification. If the reply is: I can’t deal with being one and will perform the other one better, I can dig it, as we used to say. I have many friends who have changed sides, so to speak, and never missed a beat. But it was a utilitarian thing; a common-sense choice in a world that unfairly forces us to choose one gender or the other. (As Dworkin said, a State of Emergency within Patriarchy.) I totally understand that–but “brain sex” and feeling like one gender or the other? What does this mean? I am currently reading all the Steven Pinkers and the Robert Sapolskys and the guys who purport to explain our brains to us. They think they can explain God to us, and why some believe and some don’t–and I think gender may well be something as deep, as genetic, as hard-wired for some people, as that is. I can think of no other reason for this great abyss we find ourselves staring at.

    Too long. Good God. Sorry about that.

    • Annoyed Bi Chick Says:

      This, this, this, ten thousand times! I’m so totally sick of identity. What’s identity? My passport? I’m not the same person I was when I was thirteen. Hell, I’m not the same person I was a year ago. I don’t understand what “feeling like a woman” or “feeling like a man” is even supposed to mean, and I think the fact that some people are so damn adamant about it is just kind of weird. Talking to people like that and having them try to explain it to me makes me wonder if it’s like trying to explain “red” to a congenitally blind person.

      I also do think there are people who really don’t have an internal sense of gender, because I think I’m one of them. It took me until I was eighteen to figure out that “women’s studies” was supposed to apply to me, not because I was what the internet mean cliques call a “Chill Girl,” but because it just didn’t compute. I didn’t, for what it’s worth, figure I should be sitting in a “men’s studies” class, either; the notion that this was a real thing in the world that people take very seriously had actually never really crossed my mind. I think in my case, part of it is because I have a physical handicap, and the culture at large still reckons handicapped people are by default or nature or something asexual, so we don’t get the same gender socialisation as other people do. Anyway, that is my tiny baby hypothesis; attack away (thank you, mieprowan!).

      I think identity, though, is the central question — regardless of what the particulars are, how do you resolve a difference of opinion stemming from the conflict between one group of people who see identity as fungible and basically unimportant, and another group of people who are so invested in the notion of identity, identity creation, and (maybe most importantly) reification of identities?

      • GallusMag Says:

        See comments below.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Annoyed Bi Chick: I do not doubt that gender identity socialization varies among individuals, for a variety of reasons and combinations thereof. I would hazard to guess it has something to do with whom we most closely relate to as children, something to do with media, and something to do with social enforcement.

        My initial childhood social enforcement consistently told me I was an outsider, in both good ways and bad. Gender seemed secondary and not having anything much to do with me when it wasn’t right in my face. My family did not see me as a boy, or try to force femininity on me, though I resisted feminine accoutrements strongly. None of that was ever an issue. But if I was treated differently than if I had been a boy, I would not necessarily be able to see that.

        I still have no sense of gender identity that does or does not correspond to my body.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Re: “Number one”: I’m not going to call Reed Barrow a woman and pretend he is one just because he watches the dumpsters in his apartment complex to search for fresh used tampons to shove up his ass because it brings him closer to “womanhood”. Not gonerdoit.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Daisy Dead- I’m sorry I have not had the time to respond to your comments personally as I would have liked. Sorry!
      I would like to briefly say that your current situation reminds me of this:
      http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2013/10/02/op-ed-my-attraction-trans-people-not-fetish
      and so many other examples, including Gloria Steinem’s latest:
      http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2013/10/02/op-ed-working-together-over-time

      In Diane Anderson-Minshall’s case, as editor of the Advocate, she has ruthlessly pursued a policy of erasing, censoring, deleting, and refusing to cover lesbian and feminist voices for years on what is purported to be the largest LGBT website in the US. She says she has done so because female homosexuality and feminism is anti-male. She is a massive woman-hating anti-lesbian presence who has alienated nearly all gay female readers from that site.

      She was nonetheless attacked by male transgenders (“transwomen”) on the most bootlicking post imaginable. This post was dedicated to declaring her love of consuming images of female rape (pornography) and her LOVE LOVE LOVE of dick as “either a lesbian-identified bisexual or a bisexual-identified lesbian, depending on which hour of the day it is.” I mean really. How much more man-loving and “trans-supportive” could she possibly be than telling “transwomen” how much she wants to “lesbian blow” them?

      Answer: None more.

      Here’s the thing. These guys KNOW they are full of shit with their whole female penis thing. So when a woman pretends to agree with them they KNOW she is full of shit. It enrages them every bit as much as the narrative they prefer, (or at least which makes sense) which is that “hateful” lesbians projectile-vomiting at the whole idea of them. You really can’t suck enough laydee-dick to make these guys satisfied. You can’t ban enough lesbians or erase enough women or promote enough rape or suck enough laydeepeen to extinguish the fire in these men’s bellies. Big mistake. Big miscalculation.

      Same with Gloria Steinem. Some pal talked her into politicking with an ENDA supportive statement because they were worried that feminist objections to codifying sex-role stereotypes into law might scuttle the campaign. She bit. She sucked. Just a little. Now trans are attacking her for it and demanding she support rape-for-pay/prostitution/trafficking. They want more suck. More, neverending, unquenchable suck. Big mistake. Big miscalculation.

      I see your recent troubles in the same light. You are shocked that “transwomen” attack you no matter how long and how well and how thoroughly you have sucked. Regardless of how many women you have sold-out. No amount of sucking works. We tried to warn you.


      • Please do not insult me, okay? I get the metaphor, but its particularly insulting to use sexist cocksucking metaphors on survivors. Inappropriate.

        Try not to use it next time?

        Thank you for your reply, and for allowing me to post here and especially, to defend myself. You have been gracious.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Daisy, I wrote about your experience at Feministe somewhere here at GT when it happened (in the comments section for another post; hell if I can find it). I thought how you were treated was despicable, but on par for Feministe. I don’t agree with you on everything, but damn, that was ridiculous. It pretty much encapsulated why that site is a sad joke, and why I rarely read it now.

      As for the accusations made here by Redbird, I got nuthin’. I don’t know anything of the history she alludes to, not even the names you both bring up, sorry. I don’t know who, or what, to believe. One of the many problems with online life, I guess.


  48. Did that get eaten? Should I repost?

    • GallusMag Says:

      Sorry- WordPress spammed it due to links- I just found it. Thanks for letting me know.🙂


      • Sorry for the length, got carried away. Its important to me… thanks for letting me contribute. 🙂

      • redbird Says:

        Daisy Deadhead is the woman who slimmed her way into Heart’s The Margins closed, vetted forum, and took out one woman’s venting comments never meant for public consumption, and posted them on a known AN*N site. We subsequently were hit with DDOS attacks and the theft of our passwords and email addies, receiving child torture porn and women torture porn. 21 of our blogs were destroyed, data and women’s history lost, money lost for most were owned, and women stalked and harassed on line and in real and with ssome going underground and have never returned. There was much good writing there. There was much sisterhood, the like of which we have not seen since. Since then, those involved mistrust other women now.

        Daisy Deadhead is a snake.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I like snakes. Don’t blame the snakes.🙂
        But yes, Daisy Deadhead has a history of deliberately targeting women for violent assault, stalking, etc. by the very men she now complains have “turned on her”. Pretty scary stuff. Any comment on that history Daisy?

      • Motherhood Says:

        I thought her post was long and rambling, TG expository writing 101. And that bit that we have to resolve the pronoun issues because it really matters a lot to men. So let them resolve with each other. They can high five each other “you go girl” till the cows come home. Oh and the gender idea–I think, and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but that whole gender thing does not sound like it is my best interest as a women. The question is do I want to help men feel better about themselves? Uhm, turning the thought over, looking at all sides, holding it up to the light. No.


      • Aside: This comment nesting is confusing. I hope this is the right place to post this.

        Gallus, I have read these threads you linked. I do not see my name on them, proving anything.. Where is this proof I instigated this “anon” attack? (I see the undocumented assertion from mAndrea, but no proof from her either, just accusations.) And how exactly does one get the 4 Chan kids to do exactly what you want?

        How was it decided that I am the one who did this? I have never been able to find out… Margaret Jamison thought the accusation possibly came from [name redacted-GM], angry that I outed him as the same ex-MRA (current MRA?) from the Ms boards. I strongly suspect he is “anon male” here too (and if the hit comes from upstate New York near Buffalo/SUNY, there it is.) . I think he has also posted as “Jen” a few times on radfem blogs, including Brennan’s… sometimes with two n’s. If I am mistaken, my profuse apologies and carry on… but see? ANYONE can engage in guessing games. I have no proof of this assertion and admit it… but again, the hits would tell the tale.

        My own hunch is that the attack originated with deranged psychotherapist Renee Culver/aka Lynne/aka Rainsong, who DID have access to Heart’s inner sanctum (I never did) and talked about it all the time on the Ms boards. Renee, a trans woman/radfem outed by Wendy McElroy while the Ms boards were operational, was extremely obsessed with Heart, in a very sick way. I think Heart was initially flattered by the intensity, until it turned to actual stalking. (Lucky Nickel also shared a motel room with Rainsong and didn’t know RS was trans, and then flipped out when she discovered this.) When Heart expelled Renee from her forum (I was still on the Ms boards at this time), Renee/Lynne even threatened suicide to anyone who would listen. It was decidedly unbalanced. Renee was the trans woman who worked at the Womb Tent at Michfest until she was outed. Renee is also the person who started the similarly-named “Womanspace” site (note letter change from womenspace) when Heart would not allow her to post on womenspace again. It was truly obsessive, and I would not put anything past Renee. I have a hard time believing anyone SO singularly obsessed would go quietly into that good night and simply *stop caring* about Heart. My money is on Renee. (SEE NOTE BELOW***) However, the wording on mAndrea’s post (never read the whole text before now) is pretty grotesque, and makes me think it’s a MRA, or one very familiar with their language. So who knows?

        Last year, I read that Parmy Olsen book about “Anonymous” (highly recommended, BTW) to try to understand exactly how anon works. According to her book, it is understood that anytime you go over to 4 Chan (or similar sites, have never visited any of them) asking for an attack on someone, the official reply is “NYPA” = not your personal army (google it). The “attack order” has to come from one of their regulars or someone they trust. (In fact, going over there and asking for such is a great way to get attacked yourself).

        Baseless, groundless attacks are a really unprincipled and shitty thing to do… but alas, its the way the Second Wave imploded, so you are adhering to the script. I suggest you read Phyllis Chesler’s “Woman’s Inhumanity to Woman”–for the specifics about such incidents and how trashing works. And of course, the essay “trashing” by Joreen, is the canonical text: http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/trashing.htm

        … its no surprise Chesler eventually defected herself and is now working for awful David Horowitz. This is how we lost many strong, productive feminists: we drove them away ourselves.

        In any event, *I* am not going anywhere. I’ve seen the fierce “feminists” come and go. Mostly go. Heart included. I’m still here. I think my radical work over 4 decades speaks for itself.

        And Motherhood, not rising to the bait, except I will tell you that if you stumble into the wrong southern trailer park talking like that, using words like “cracker” as if you have the right to use them? Well, I will just avert my eyes. Please refrain from that kind of language in the future, or at least be very very careful where you use it. I say this for your own good.

        Again, GM, thank you for allowing me to comment and defend myself. I didn’t know these accusations were still going around.

        ****Interesting that when I google this incident (McElroy deleted her dumbass libertarian blog, and not a moment too soon), the only hit I get is from HERE… from (GUESS WHO?) Anon Male.

        Probably just a coincidence. 😉

      • GallusMag Says:

        @Daisy- very very interesting. Thank you for responding to these accusations fully. I really appreciate it.

        I redacted that person’s name because I don’t know if that is their “real” name and I see no point in publishing it if it is.

        Thanks again for this full response which appears to be in good faith. Very interesting historical account.

        I will respond to your original comment now.

      • redbird Says:

        Interesting how you managed to trash Heart in two different ways here. I expect you’re now frantically deleting all the shit you have posted about her over the years on your blog, along with your love letter to your trans friend.


    • I have never deleted a single post I have ever written. Ever. Period. That’s Heart that does that. You seem to be confused.

      If Heart did not want to be written about, she should not have run for president. I have written about ALL presidential candidates. If women are going to play with the Big Boys, they need to learn to take the heat. I am on lefty talk radio in the most conservative county in the USA (according to Rick Santorum, who should know). I get haters, big time. I’ve been stalked and followed by Bob Jones University fundies across three counties. I had to decide: am I up for this or not? I almost threw in the towel, admittedly. If Heart could not take the criticism that comes with running for president, she should have withdrawn her candidacy as the official “radical feminist” candidate. She didn’t. Thus, she should expect criticism. That is called “politics” and it comes with the territory. And I practice what I preach.

      As for “love letters to trans friends” (its kinda nice that I do not know exactly which post you refer to!) — I am never ashamed of love, or words of love, or love letters. Feminism has indeed fallen on hard times, when feminists try to shame each other because they love.

      As Yoko Ono’s husband once said, Love is the Answer. 🙂

      And you know for sure.

      • Choco Says:

        Wow that is some threatening language you used against Motherhood upthread. I never understood thewhole “second wave feminismwas exclusionary” thing either. Thank goodness for third wave feminism, where the goal is to have all women objectified equally. Oh and btw-being an uneducated “white trash” woman is more racist than something to be proud of.


    • Choco, you are saying uneducated white trash people are automatically racist? I see, so all those rich plantation owners who owned slaves (only 25% of all southern whites) and their Republican descendants who current run the south are the good, nonracist people?

      Got it.

      I learn so much here.

      As I said, I left the Second Wave over classism and elitism… thanks for your handy-dandy examples for those following along at home.

      And if you think my extremely tepid words of warning to “Motherhood” were “threatening”, I guess you HAVE lived a very sheltered, upper middle class life indeed.

      In addition to “Expository Writing”–I also never took that class in Pearl Clutching 101.

      • Choco Says:

        I’m arguing that the term “white trash” is racist in itself b/c it’s used to designate between white people living in poverty to POC living in poverty, who many racists regard as “real” trash. And yes, I have a feeling many white people living in poverty in the South have some degree of racism against POC (which of course doesn’t mean that racism doesn’t exist in the rest of America and in other countries). It’s called having white privilege. Hence why so many white Southerners are waiting for “the South to rise again” so they can have more money and power over blacks like in the good old days. And cracker is not reverse racism either.

        And lol at the white, blond shiksa telling my Russian Jewish ass that it’s sheltered.

      • Motherhood Says:

        Choco,
        Miss Daisy is violent and she likes it like that. And she likes her “identity” too. She imagines that if she throws out the word “elitism” that somehow elevates her to something above sick and twisted and dull. Take a good look at her–all those pissed off white kids claiming Queer–fast forward a decade. It does not age well. There should be a public service announcement–This Is Your Brain On Bull Shit.


    • Choco: I’m arguing that the term “white trash” is racist in itself b/c it’s used to designate between white people living in poverty to POC living in poverty, who many racists regard as “real” trash.

      But the term was invented by rich white people, not POC. But I guess history doesn’t matter much to you, does it?

      Choco: And yes, I have a feeling many white people living in poverty in the South have some degree of racism against POC (which of course doesn’t mean that racism doesn’t exist in the rest of America and in other countries). It’s called having white privilege.

      I think I probably know more about the south than you do.

      Choco: Hence why so many white Southerners are waiting for “the South to rise again” so they can have more money and power over blacks like in the good old days.

      See above post. They are? Umm, no. Don’t believe the hype. You describe the minority tea-party view (which has taken over local southern politics due to the pernicious power of churches w/accompanying gerrymandering) and/or that of the old guard. Do not confuse them with the majority of southerners. Keep in mind, approx 33% of my state IS African American… what is the percentage of yours? (especially check the the footnotes of my post.. you aren’t one of those white yankees living in a white suburb preaching to me about racism, as I sit here as only one of 3 white people in my apt building, are you? I am tired of all the online political correctness from people who nonetheless choose to live IRL in segregated enclaves.)

      Choco: And cracker is not reverse racism either.

      Of course it isn’t, it is mostly an ethnic slur against people of Appalachian decent, of course. (Just as antisemitic slurs are not “racist” either.) It is very specific, as the word “redneck” is. (If you are interested in the odd particulars of southern history, you really should be reading my blog. 😀 “Cracker” was the name of two sports teams in Georgia, so was not always considered an insult until the rich started demarcating the poor with the term.

      You might also enjoy my post about my Melungeon ancestry. (or maybe not) Hoping to get a DNA test in the next year, and will be writing about the Melungeon gene, if indeed I have it. I will be the first in my lineage to test for the gene; its exciting but unnerving.

      Yes “identity” is unnerving and disturbing, wondering if we might all be better off without it!

      Choco: And lol at the white, blond shiksa

      Okay, what’s wrong with being blonde? Born that way, its all me. Is that bad too? Wow, feminism is getting more and more exclusive these days. I don’t go to hair salons or anything–don’t I get any cookies for that? Back in my old collective, salons and hair dye were the line you didn’t cross (and I never have), but I guess that rule has changed since the 70s? What year was this? What collective outlawed the natural blondes? (I realize the bleach blondes got purged) Goodness, –I could NEVER measure up to your strict rules.

      Choco: telling my Russian Jewish ass that it’s sheltered.

      Uh huh, you CLAIM you are, anyway… I see no photos or proof you exist at all. You might be an old Republican white man for all I know. I am very skeptical of self-righteous online personas and become more skeptical as time goes on… MOST have no proof of they are who they say they are. (meaning: the self-righteousness correlates perfectly with the anonymity) Because of course, that would give us the chance to dissect their claims and leave them wide open to attack .

      I WILL give Heart credit for not being one of those swine, who are now a huge blight upon the land. And in fact, she was one of the first to warn us about them, that these anonymous “feminists” could freely attack us without sharing anything about themselves. I have since fully realized (and experienced) exactly what she was talking about.

      And “Motherhood”–if there was some *point* in all your fulminating, I missed it. I guess its just as well.

      “This is your brain on hate”.

      Speaking of skepticism, I love that photo in your avatar. Is that suppose


      • Sorry, last sentence got cut off… my question: “Motherhood”– is that supposed to be you? 🙂

        As the bikers say, I was born at night, but I wasn’t born LAST NIGHT.

      • Motherhood Says:

        Oh the photo is Carson Mccullers–The Heart is a Lonely Hunter and Ballad of The Sad Cafe. Not me. I suspect I look more like Choco same gene pool–so sorry we missed all the segregation stuff we were otherwise occupied in concentration camps and DP camps–just couldn’t get away. Hate yeah I 100% hate men that are a danger to women and the women that facilitate them. Men that claim they are women are the biggest danger since the Cossacks. These guys hit on the mother load. They are so violent and so demented and lie so much that last year I gave this whole thing 15 more years–now I give it 6-8. But I have no doubt they will rape and kill women before the AMA and APA declare them straight up delusional sociopaths marked significantly by the unsavory compulsive fetish as the defining characteristic.

      • Choco Says:

        Wow, I’m not sure what the point of all of that was. And actually no, I don’t need any history lessons at all thanks. You sound a lot like the transhorde-I pointed out an example of racism and you wax idiotic about apparently how I pick on whites in poverty instead of rich white southerners. It’s kind of similar to how when radical feminists say that men can’t be women, the trans screech that we want to put them in death camps.

        And the cute part about how you can’t really know who I am (and feminism hates blondes?)-I’d love to send you a picture of the barcode on my grandmother’s wrist from being in a concentration camp. I’m done engaging you and your bullshit.

        @Motherhood Preach on sister! Your ability to tell it like it is is nothing short of perfection.


  49. Excuse me Redbird (Heart?), but I was never on your forum and you know it. I didn’t do any of that, as I explained in depth on several posts… but I AM glad you stopped sending your sociopathic son Sol to my blog and he has since stopped stalking me. Thanks for that.


  50. Motherhood, sorry..,.as stated above, I’m simple white trash w/no college education. Missed Expository writing 101. (You just reminded me! My major problem with the Second Wave was the frequently rampant classism and proud elitism..)

    And yes, my comment about the “stalking” is in moderation. In short, all bullshit. I have no knowledge of how to hack websites, can barely manage html. I am unsure of why you think I have done these things, other than Heart’s word for it? Heart’s son Solomon Seelhoff is the one who stalked ME, and at some length. I finally had to report him to Facebook and block him.

    Anyway, I knew it was probably a mistake to comment, but thought I would acknowledge the olive branch mentioned above. I do think these discussions are important, as flawed and venomous as they usually are. I will comment no further, and thank you GM for your hospitality.

    I love snakes, myself. Still another way I never felt like a girl.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Nothing is in moderation as far as I know. Re: the Anon/4chan attacks on radfem blog I believe the accusation was that you provided private information to male transgenders and MRAs who then proceeded to do the hacking and DOS attacks and staking. In fact, I find it disingenuous that you claim not to know that and instead say “I don’t know how to hack websites”. No one ever claimed you did, and you must know that. Bad Faith! Bad Faith! Please stop doing that.

    • Motherhood Says:

      Well yonder in white trash land does everyone have a FB where most of the women look like men. Save your po white trash twisted tale of woe–I do not feel a bit guilty nor do I feel badly for you–I suspect you are manipulative and less than honest. Interesting style though I suppose the TG boys are all just an innocent bunch of humble country crackers just like you. You all sittin around listenin to Jerry do Uncle Johns Band.


  51. Comment in moderation. Whether you eventually publish it or not, I do want you to see the info contained therein. Thanks.


  52. Correction: unfortunately, McElroy’s blog is still around, but the URL has since changed.

    Shoot, got my hopes up for a minute there.

    “An unapologetic Dworkinite immune to logic”–McElroy on Daisy

    One of those great compliments I’ve gotten over the years.

  53. Black Iris Says:

    An outsider’s opinion –

    It drives me crazy to see the communities rip each other up. The enemy is not transgender people or radical feminists and lesbians. The enemy is a society that says it’s okay to deny jobs, housing, and marriage to all of you. It’s a world where it’s okay to bully, rape, beat, and even kill women, gays, lesbians, and transgendered people.

    Maybe the first step to getting along is to recognize that.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Black Iris, that sounds lovely and all peacenik-y and everything, and makes you sound oh-so-reasonable, but it’s also completely dismissive of many of the issues raised at this blog – all of which deserve attention and discussion.


  54. […] feminist blogs with hacking, DOS attacks and stalking. Heart’s post touched on the issues raised HERE yesterday in the GenderTrender Unmoderated […]

  55. Lex Says:

    A strawman argument is a pretty easy argument to kill, you know.

    I don’t know why, with all the problems that continue to afflict women, even in developed countries, with all the work that is left to be done–I don’t know why you have chosen to crusade against something that is, at least, a victimless crime.

    No words for the disturbing trends towards biological essentialism in certain sciences? Nothing about the rising backlash against the gains made in the 90s? Or rising rates of sexual assault? Or how the third wave has gone just a little bit too far in embracing the feminine aspect of feminism–and conflated radicalism with having many kinds of hair care product to choose from? Or the MRA nonsense?

    It seems obvious that the more men and women are able to play with gender–the less they are squashed into little boxes by society–the better off everyone will be. And transgender visibility, which problematizes the confluence of gender and sex, helps to move everyone towards that goal. I’m not saying there aren’t transgender folks who personally choose to reinforce certain kinds of norms–which is, in my opinion, extremely silly–but the impact of this movement on the ground has had more to do with inclusion and diversity than anything else.

    And I have had that “shared girlhood” experience of yours. I know about the pressures and the barriers towards self-actualization that get imposed on women by society. I’ve gotten followed by a f**king white van–had to outrun a dude who popped out of the dark one night while I was jogging–had to shut down guys who thought I was hooker because I happened to be walking down the street reading *by myself* (the temerity!). I’ve gotten the mansplaining–had people discount my professional expertise because of my perceived sex.

    I don’t know what you do when you’re not on the net, but a lot of what you’re doing here doesn’t strike me as having a whole lot of relevance to the liberation of women.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Speaking just for myself, I find this blog very liberating, Lex. It liberates me from the “third wave” funfem bullshit, and it liberates me from the male-worshipping and MtT-worshipping that goes on with them. It also liberates me from people who arrogantly and non-insightfully dismiss legitimate problems with the phrase “straw-man argument,” which seems to be endemic these days.

      This blog tells the truth about what’s going on within the LGBTMNOP “community”, and after realizing that lesbian and gay news blogs can be as misinformative as any right-wing site, that’s liberating. YMMV.

  56. Versa Says:

    I am willing to acknowledge that for at least some trans, the issue is that they feel unable to be happy with their natal sex, and they genuinely believe that the only way to find mental and emotional peace is to transition to the opposite sex… or as close an approximation as they can.

    This is something I can’t really understand, having never experienced it myself, but I’ve seen it repeated enough that I must acknowledge the possibility of an experience I can’t relate to, and the best I can do is trust the sincerity of those who have lived it. However, for what it’s worth, as a young girl I once experienced a fleeting desire to be a boy because my impression of boys (as a gender, not a sex) seemed to fit better with who I was and who I wanted to be.

    I quickly dismissed that desire as stupid and refused to believe that being a girl limited me in any way, and I have never since felt any desire to be male. I wish all trans could find the same acceptance and peace that I did, and refuse to play along with the sexism of a society that tells you being male/female means you have to be a certain way in any department other than procreation.

    But I recognize that for many it’s a lot more difficult than it was for me. And I do not wish to add to the pain of being unable to accept your body or your life as it is. I know that hurts. It isn’t my goal to put down trans people (at least the harmless ones who aren’t fetishists and don’t make death/rape threats).

    What I do wish is the following:

    – I don’t want to have to pretend that it’s possible to change one’s sex. It isn’t. A male-to-trans will never give birth or even menstruate. A female-to-male will never produce sperm or impregnate a woman. If you want to alter your body to resemble the opposite sex, that’s your business and I don’t condemn you for it. But please don’t ask me to suspend my belief in biology to accommodate your feelings. If I refer to you as “he” it is not out of a desire to be disrespectful or hurtful, but to be truthful and accurate.

    – I don’t want to have to share female-only space with those who are not female, and that means born female. Were it not for the slippery slope, I might be agreeable to accommodating post-op trans “women” — emphasis on “might” — but given that such accommodations are now being extended by coercive law to males who not only haven’t had the surgery but don’t even intend to, I see it as crucially important that we stand up and insist on our right to penis-free locker rooms. Don’t blame me; blame Colleen Francis and his enablers. If trans people don’t like it, you should stop including under your umbrella such people who refuse to commit and truly “transition.”

    – Most of all, I wish an end to sex stereotypes. When I see male-to-trans playing up the makeup/fashion/stereotypical femininity, I cringe. That is not what it means to be female. When I hear a mother say she knew her baby son was trans because he reached for a pink blanket, I wonder how anyone can be so stupid. When I hear people claim they “feel like” the opposite sex, it rings hollow. What does that even mean? I don’t “feel like” a woman — or a man — I just am, and my genitalia and chromosomes and reproductive capacity just are what they are. There’s no sense of it feeling a certain way to be male or female — apart from socialization, which isn’t innate of course — any more than it feels a certain way to be this or that race/ethnicity.

    This last point gets to the original reason that I began to oppose transsexuality in the first place:

    Years ago, I had the misfortune of reading a forum post written by a woman who was married to a female-to-male trans person. She and her “husband” were both very outspoken and really quite aggressive and antagonistic in their advocacy of the trans agenda, arrogantly insisting that anyone who dared to question their perspective was a “bully.” Anyway, what she was was basically this:

    Gender is not binary, but exists on a continuum, from 100% female and 0% male, to 100% male and 0% female. Everyone falls somewhere on this spectrum at or between the two extremes. The woman writing this stated that she was (as I recall) 65% female and 35% male. She explained that her maleness came from her enjoyment of tomboyish activities such as climbing trees, and from her skill at mathematics.

    Hold on. Being good at math means you’re male? Yup, that’s what she said.

    Gee, thanks for reinforcing the detrimental stereotype that keeps so many women out of science and engineering. Thanks for telling little girls that they can’t do math because they are girls. Or, if they can do math, then they’re really not girls after all!

    (Incidentally, this woman also claimed to be 100% heterosexual, despite being married to a self-hating woman, which made me wonder: if you’re 100% heterosexual, and your sex is as you claim, that should mean you’re attracted only to people who are 65% male and 35% female, right? That’s quite a small portion of the population, isn’t it!)

    In addition to that post, which (needless to say) I found quite offensive and objectionable, the woman’s “husband” frequently posted blatant admissions of “his” hatred for women. At first I found it bizarre that a natal female would be so antagonistic toward her own sex, but then it dawned on me: this was someone who hated being female so much that she did everything she could do eradicate her own femaleness. If femaleness was unacceptable in herself, why should it be more tolerable in others?

    So, the truth is, I may very well be soured on the trans agenda by these two misogynist individuals who were in large part my introduction to the trans agenda. But I simply cannot support any movement that reinforces the idea that women are bad at math and worthy of hatred.

    So, yes, I have a bias against trans issues. But that bias was created by two of the movement’s most ardent advocates.

    • Ave Says:

      Versa, your views on it are pretty much mine on it too

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Versa, my views on trans issues were also created by reading and hearing the vitriol that so often comes out of their mouths. The extra-sad part of it is that they so often don’t even come close to realizing their misogyny or homophobia.

      One big thing that would help “bridge the divide” for me would be an end to the total appropriation of women’s issues, women’s experiences, women’s history, etc. An end to them saying “I’m a woman exactly like you.” (No, no you’re not. Nope.) An end to them dismissing the impact and importance of growing up female. An end to them claiming that even though they grew up male, they “experienced and internalized sexism and misogyny as a female.” No, no you didn’t.

      • BadDyke Says:

        An end to them thinking they had anything at all relevant to say about being female or being a woman. So, not just staying out of our bathrooms and meetings, but staying out, period. Go call yourself something else, but don’t call yourself a trans woman, cos you’re nothing to do with women. Zero. Ditto being female. There is no ‘compromise’ to be found.


  57. If the fear of violence and abuse from trans people expressed by some radical feminists is genuine, then I’m really very sorry. Acutely aware of the damaging act of parodying women, I delayed transition until the sex dysphoria became so difficult to bear that I didn’t know what to do.
    The problem with trans people fighting for access to women’s space is that they are conflating theory with reality and are pursuing a dogmatic campaign which doesn’t take account of real concerns.
    I know you’ve know reason to trust me when I say this, but I have no interest in colonising female bodies, breaking into female space or “tricking” lesbians into dating me. I was barely able to function before transition and now I’m happy; I just want to be able to live my life. It’s not about identity or sex, it’s about comfort. I’d like to think that this is the same for most trans people.

    • Lint Says:

      Mattie, I can assure you the fear of violence from MtT is genuine. Why wouldn’t it be? With the amount of violence that men commit agaisnt women, why should we suddenly trust them because they smear on some lipstick and put on a dress? I am tired of transpeople and their allies constantly questioning our completely reasonable reaction– but again if you were actually a woman, Mattie, you’d understand why a man, especially a man in what is supposed to be a woman’s only space, is threat.


      • Please don’t straw-man what I’m saying or resort to personal attacks; I’m trying to be respectful on points of disagreement.

        I’m aware I’m not a woman in the sense of having been born one (which I understand is the only way that matters for some radical feminists) and I’m aware that trans people are different.

        Trans people have taken the wrong route on things like bathroom laws and it has contributed to the fear that I accept is genuine. Where gender neutral bathrooms are available, I always use them, where they aren’t I base which bathroom I use on whether or not my appearance will warrant abuse from men – not because I feel a sense of entitlement to use the women’s.

        What we should have focused on is making gender neutral toilets mandatory, rather than creating laws which are open to abuse by dangerous people. Some trans people complain about “othering”, but it doesn’t bother me so much, because trans people are different and we should be embracing that, rather than pretending we aren’t.

        A middle ground on this would be for us MtFs (or MtTs in your nomenclature) to accept that we are not the same as biological females, and radical feminists to accept that we are not the same as biological males. Trans people of both sexes occupy a space in between.

        Extending this further, whilst I feel more comfortable with female pronouns, I wouldn’t mind someone with strong radfem values using a recognised gender neutral pronoun, like ‘they’, when referring to me, because it would be a mark of respect without you having to acquiesce to a point of view you disagree with.

        During the beginning my transition my counsellor would often express dismay at my unfeminine appearance. If this is common in trans counselling then I understand why so many trans people revert to gender stereotypes. Thankfully, my doctor understands that my views on gender are broadly similar to those of radical feminists and my dysphoria is entirely bodily.

        The fact is, I wish I wasn’t trans, because I sympathise with and try to understand your point of view. Believe me, I tried to live my life as a heterosexual male because I didn’t want to reinforce patriarchal gender roles, but I was falling to pieces. Transition was a last resort for me, and I believe it always should be. Men who want to occupy the assigned feminine gender role are welcome to do so, but they are fundamentally different to people like me who feel like prisoners in our own bodies.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Mattie you are just a regular hetero man with autogynephilia. Stop watching porn. Stop pretending your narcissistic naval-gazing male feelings relate to the female experience in any way. Have respect for women. Thanks.

      • Lint Says:

        Mattie, you roll on to a RadFem blog and question the legit fear that women have of MtT… a fear which has been explained and expounded on at length. This is not the place for you to be questioning if that fear is real or not. I am glad that you have accepted and acknowledged it in your latest post.

        You say you don’t feel any entitlement to use the women’s bathroom, but let’s be real. You would rather scare women, invade our space, and set a precedent for perverts than risk tangling with the boys. Why is that? I guess it’s because men are violent. And that’s precisely why women don’t want men, MtT or otherwise, in women’s bathrooms.

        I love the idea of gender neutral bathrooms provided that women’s bathrooms are left intact. However, I doubt that will stop MtT from transgressing into women’s spaces since their main theme is being accepted as women not as a third gender.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Wow, some interesting comments here from both sides. Mattie, I concur with Lint in that gender neutral bathrooms are great as long as female bathrooms are left available. Turning all bathrooms gender neutral is totally unacceptable. I also agree with Lint with regard to your use of women’s bathrooms, and Red’s point about you calling yourself a woman.

        However, I do think you bring up some intriguing compromises….I need to mull this over some more. I hope others will chime in.

        I’m curious as to how far you’re willing to extend your understanding, Mattie. Do you think that your (and other MtT) need for safety extends to the use of MtT’s use of women’s locker rooms? Changing rooms? OB-GYN’s offices? Support groups?

      • mieprowan Says:

        What exactly is a gender-neutral bathroom? If it’s a room with a toilet, a sink and a lockable door, there will be resistance to this in areas with a lot of homeless people because it makes for a handy place to shoot up or smoke crack. I do not write this to disparage homeless people or drug users, it’s just a concern merchants tend to have.

        Otherwise, a multistall unisex bathroom would not exactly solve the problem.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Miep, I live in a large city, and you’re absolutely right. Hell, even our bus stop benches are divided, in order to keep people from sleeping on them. So asking merchants to provide a nice private room for people is bound to cause problems. The Target I go to has a bathroom like this (it’s labeled a “family bathroom”, and I use it when I have the kids in a stroller with me), but as there’s also a methadone clinic directly across the street, we’ll see how long it lasts.

    • red Says:

      I take it then you don’t try to tell people you are a woman? Because that is the space we’re talking about. Wear what you want, but don’t say you’re a woman because you aren’t and if you do say that, then you are occupying MY SPACE and I’m not putting up with it.


  58. It won’t let me reply directly to GallusMag for some reason, but I’d like to respond to this comment:

    “Mattie you are just a regular hetero man with autogynephilia. Stop watching porn. Stop pretending your narcissistic naval-gazing male feelings relate to the female experience in any way. Have respect for women. Thanks.”

    (Firstly, I was mainly talking about the same things in that video as I’m talking about here, so if you thought posting it would have embarrassed me or opened up my true, nasty self for the world to see, then you thought wrong.)

    The theory of autogynephilia, which few psychologists actually subscribe too, is completely different to my experience of sex dysphoria. At no point were the feelings ever sexual in nature.

    I don’t watch porn and never have, beyond mild curiosity about what everybody was talking about when I was 13/14.

    I don’t think that my feelings relate to the female experience, at least not socially, in any way. Every second of every day I was under extreme distress that I couldn’t deal with and now I’m not. That’s all there is to it.

    I have respect for women. If I didn’t I would be on this blog insulting and threatening you all like some of the other trans people.

    It sounds like you don’t want to find a middle-ground though. I mean, part of living in a society means rubbing shoulders with people you disagree with, and reconciliation between trans people and radfems would make things more tolerable. Yet, even when I tried to be respectful and reach out, you felt it right to slap me down as if I was reciting the usual line.

    I guess the question I would ask radfems is, given that sex dysphoria has always been present in society and is widely accepted as a real thing, what should be done about it? Clearly you disagree with transition, so what should the dysphoric do? Maybe then I’d get a clearer picture of what you wanted to hear when you posted this topic.

    • GallusMag Says:

      I posted one of your hundreds of videos of you talking about yourself so that readers could see it. Nothing more. You posted them, so I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t want people to see them. How strange.

      I “felt it right to slap you down”? That is interesting. Very dramatical. I would never characterize my comment that way. I thought I was quite clear and succinct. To me you appear to be a regular average guy. Except for the excessive narcissism which I mentioned. Just a regular guy. Nothing special. Not a woman. Nothing to do with women or females. Just an extremely sexist misogynist self-centered man who “feels better” when wearing some eyeshadow and lippy.

      What do I think men like you who have feelings of “sex dysphoria” should do? I really couldn’t care less, sir. Why would I? You are a total stranger and (no offense) of no interest to me whatsoever. Do whatever you want. Whatever floats your boat.

      What I have an issue with is when you start inflicting yourself on women. By calling yourself a woman. By claiming that we are a feeling you have. We are not. We are actual humans who exist outside of your “feelings” and control. Stop defining us. Stop colonizing us. Stop misrepresenting us. Stop slurring our name “woman”. Leave women alone completely. Just stop.

      Thanks.


      • I didn’t say that I didn’t want anybody to see them, I just thought it was necessary to explain it to people who just read the title and didn’t watch it (which I imagine, quite rightly, is most people).

        I want you to explain to me exactly how I’m being sexist or misogynistic. Unless you mean the transition itself, which would then be a point of disagreement – which is okay.

        Stop defining and misrepresenting me. I have done none of the things you have said, I’m trying to have a discussion.

        Obviously women are not a “feeling” that I have. I have never claimed they are. I don’t want to control or colonise you.

        Can we move past this usual mud-slinging stuff and get to an actual discussion now?

      • Versa Says:

        Mattie, if it’s possible, can you try to explain what it is like to have your dysphoria? If you don’t “feel like” a woman, what is it then?

        What is the mental/emotional condition that causes you to perceive yourself as not the same as other biological males and to feel relief when you transitioned?

        Do you now consider yourself a woman, or a third category somehow different from both biological males and biological females?

      • GallusMag Says:

        There has been no mudslinging. There has been a conversation. You just ignored the things women said because you did not like them. And now you want me to spend my time doing what for you?

        Several women including myself have been kind enough to have a discussion with you. This is an unmoderated post (except in cases of repetitive abuse) so you can say what you want but you are mistaken if you think women owe you anything, including myself. Sorry you were unwilling to listen and engage. Sorry but not the least bit surprised. Good day to you sir.

      • Versa Says:

        To be fair, GM, you *did* pose the question of “What would it take to resolve the great divide between the practice of genderism (“Transgender”) and the liberation of women (“Feminism”)?” So when Mattie offers up his thoughts, and gets a reception here that doesn’t respect his attempts at bridging that great divide, he understandably didn’t know how to take it and asked, well, what *should* someone like him do, then? Seems a fair response to me, under the circumstances. This whole discussion is about resolving that great divide, no?

        Then you respond with “What do I think men like you who have feelings of “sex dysphoria” should do? I really couldn’t care less, sir.” But may I respectfully suggest that you actually *could* care less. You care if they invade women’s locker rooms, right? You care if they promote a view of what it means to be a woman that is denigrating to us. That’s why you have this awesome blog!

        Here is a rare MtT who is not threatening or insulting us (at least not deliberately) and not even parodying us by putting on a wig and makeup in his video. He is trying to engage us in this discussion about bridging our divide. Give him that. He’s trying. Wish they all would! How about we try, too?*

        I didn’t get what was so horrible about his video. I found it thoughtful and respectful. It was a refreshing change from the many offensive and almost satirical videos like that one where the MtT pointed the camera at his perky, lace-encrusted boobies and complained about the audacity of straight men to reject his cock-sucking prowess.

        But I *do* — definitely — agree with your comments that being a woman is not a feeling. That is the one thing about even courteous and respectful trans people that I just don’t get. I don’t “feel like” a woman — I just am one. And I’ve thought about what it would be like if I’d happened to be born in a male body. Would that change who I am? Honestly, I don’t think it would. I think I would accept my maleness, in that hypothetical case, just as I accept my femaleness in the real case. I can’t possibly know for 100% sure, but that’s what I sincerely believe. I just really don’t get what trans people are going on about when they talk about “feeling like” a woman (or man).

        * Anyway, I’ll try — Mattie, what should you do? I would say this: If it somehow makes you feel better to get hormone therapy or cosmetic surgery, then do so. If you want to wear a dress, then do so. But please recognize that this doesn’t mean you’re a woman. Please continue to use men’s restrooms (or gender neutral ones when available). I’m sorry if there’s a danger from men there… but that’s what women live with every day, only not just in restrooms. That’s why we don’t want men (including you) in our restroom. If the men in the men’s restrooms are being (or threatening to be) violent to you, how about if the trans movement takes up *that* issue — ending male violence — rather than insisting on using women’s restrooms?

      • GallusMag Says:

        “…when Mattie offers up his thoughts, and gets a reception here that doesn’t respect his attempts at bridging that great divide…”

        Where THE FUCK do you get off Versa?! MANY of us women EXPLICITLY RESPONDED to his query INCLUDING ME PERSONALLY.

        LMAO that you consider yourself a radical feminist who chides women on their “lack of respect” for men. HAHAHAHAHAHA! Seriously, you made my night. Too fucking funny.

        Sorry you have reading comprehension problems Versa and are unable to parse a distinction between what matters to radical feminists (things impacting the lives of women) and things THAT DO NOT- like what some guy does to his own dick for christssakes. WOW.

        My comment was PERFECTLY CLEAR. Yet your priority is to chastise me? Speaks volumes about your male-centric priorities. No idea who you are but I feel I have a much better fix on your “activism” now.😉

      • GallusMag Says:

        “..I didn’t get what was so horrible about his video.” Where did you see this?!? I must have missed it. Who said this?

      • GallusMag Says:

        “..not even parodying us by putting on a wig and makeup in his video.” Well he’s smeared with a shitload of the stuff in most if his videos if you had bothered following the link. Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you. Done wasting time interacting with such a moron now, ta.

    • Lint Says:

      You should get treatment for your mental disorder– one that does not involve slicing up your perfectly healthy body, becoming an insulting caricature of women, and then invading our spaces. I fully accept that your pain and suffering is real, Mattie but I totally disagree in the way you are trying relieve that pain.


      • I guess all I can say is that I disagree. I don’t know how many readers of this blog are from the UK, but we have quite stringent regulations in this area and I have undergone a lot of psychotherapy in order to make sure this was what I wanted. It was always a last resort for me.

        I don’t know whether it helps at all, but I’ve been at pains throughout this whole process to make sure I don’t become a caricature of a woman, and I’d like to see other trans people behaving in the same way.

        I think the problem is that people see it as their route to passing, which should not really be their main concern.

      • Lint Says:

        Whatever Mattie. I don’t care if you have the approval of therapists or not. I don’t care if this is a last resort for you or not. The fact is your “transition” is inherently misogynistic. There is no way around that. I realize you are trying to be the good transperson but there is no such thing.

      • redbird Says:

        There’s really no nice way to say it: You are being suckered by the industry. That’s wrong of them, but we can’t stop you so we’ll just continue to call them on their unethical, predatory, misogynistic mutilations, castrations and eugenics. Please instead of obsessively spamming this blog, go spend your time reading some non-industry funded research.

        This is my last comment until you leave this blog.


      • Lint, I guess we’ll just have to disagree on your first point.

        If there is no such thing as a good transperson, then I guess there’s no point in this thread existing.


      • redbird:

        I live in a country with universal healthcare, so I haven’t paid any money into the industry that you loathe.

        I’m also not spamming this blog, I am discussing the topic at hand.

        It’s fine if you don’t wish to engage; you don’t owe me a conversation, but don’t try to make me feel bad about trying to have a civilised conversation.

      • Lint Says:

        Mattie, you have a mental illness. For that I am sorry. But instead of trying to deal with it and heal in a responsible way, you choose to indulge in a gruesome, misogynistic masquerade. No matter how good you think you are, what you are doing is inherently harmful to women.

        The only point of this discussion is to show people that transgenderism, no matter how polite and seemingly sympathetic its supporters, is anti-woman bullshit.


      • I don’t know Lint. I’m sorry that my life offends you in this way. I know that no matter what I say you will see me as misogynistic, but you should know that when I hear a trans woman say that they always knew they were trans because they loved the colour pink growing up, I shudder as much as you do.

        I’m not asking you to call me a woman or use feminine pronouns, I’m just asking you not to call me a man or use male pronouns. I’m not asking for access to your space, I’m proposing a joint effort for separate transsexual space. I’m not here to promote gender stereotypes, I wish to join you in smashing them down.

        You can call what I’m doing unhealthy, but it has stabilised me and allowed me to carry on my life. It is the foundation I’m building my life on, but not the be all and end all of it.

        As much as you may not believe it, I think radfems and trans people can co-exist, and I will continue promoting and supporting engagement and understanding across the rift.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Mattie you are male. Hence the whole dick and balls arrangement. Stop demanding women pretend you are not. Doing so is violent and sick. Thanks.

      • Lint Says:

        “I’m not asking you to call me a woman or use feminine pronouns, I’m just asking you not to call me a man or use male pronouns.”

        NO. I am not role playing with you, Mattie. You’re a man and I’m going to use male pronouns to refer to you. Why should I support your delusion and misogyny, as though that’s some kind of courtesy?

        “I’m not asking for access to your space”

        No, you’re taking it and demanding it. You use women’s bathrooms. You claim to be a woman even though you are a man.

        “As much as you may not believe it, I think radfems and trans people can co-exist, and I will continue promoting and supporting engagement and understanding across the rift.”

        The understanding you’ve given me is that you’re a man who can’t take no for an answer.

    • Motherhood Says:

      Mattie you are wrong many psychologists subscribe to autogynephilia but have no desire to have their families threatened. You guys are dirt bags that don’t pay your bills so you get the lowest level of people dealing with you—washouts and wackos. You will note that most “therapists” that work with the population are MSW or LSW anyone with a real career is not touching you guys with a 10-foot pole. You know that, we know it too, so please don’t piss in our ear and call it rain.

      I don’t want to “rub shoulders” or any other body part, with a male dressed up doing girly on the good ship lolly pop, (it is a repulsive sight at best) any more than I want to rub shoulders with any other male. You and your fetish are boring. I don’t pity you, you have no milk of human compassion from me because your mental illness is violent manipulative and based in a hatred for women. Part of the delusion and the manipulation is that you imagine women owe you something or have some reason to give a shit about the lies you spin to cover the tent in your skirt. We don’t.

      I personally do not care what an adult does to their own body as long as they do not expect me to role play in the delusion and sex fantasy that they have going on. Expect me to use a female pronoun—no. Why you are a man. My words are mine, take that shit and back away. Women live in reality—we don’t get the male privilege of making a hard-on a civil rights issue. You will be a man for every second of every day for the rest of your life. If that makes you want to kill yourself pro tip for the cause—hanging dressed in a garter belt gets recorded as autoerotic asphyxiation not suicide. And to be honest you could open your veins in front of most women and they would not care.

      I hope whatever jack ass is your therapist has been paid and put some money away because sooner rather than later—de-transition and law suites will be au courant. A male is not a woman no matter how many synthetic hormones or surgeries he has to alter appearance. He is a man. So slice away men just don’t expect women to play along in pretend land. You want to live there that is your choice we also have free will, perception and choice. Ask yourself why do you want women to honor your delusion—because you are a fucking violent male and you expect it, demand it. You are nothing special and not a woman

      I personally will not share space with you unless it is highly populated and public. I like to be safe and have not desire to harassed menaced raped or murdered because the boys in skirts get very mad when women refuse to role play. If I found you in the ladies I would take it as a threat of physical violence and douse you in anti-riot industrial mace. I think all women have to make womens safe spaces more dangerous to men—we have to loudly defend ourselves. As for the disphoria it should be treated as any other mental illness–it is a mental illness. Many are indeed autogyniphilac, many suffer from several personality disorders. The lion’s share are in fact suffering from a whole mosaic of anti-social, sexual fetishists disorders and are a real threat to women and girls. Women owe you nothing you are a male. If the delusion was not so violent as to demand women honor it perhaps it would be diffent. But demanding access to women’s spaces is a form of rape. We are terrified of you. Why the fuck can’t you leave us alone. Why? Because you get off on it. It makes you hard and then you ejaculate–and that’s the most important thing in the world. The bottom line is these men continue they will expose themselves as rage driven males and as violent. Once that genie is out of the bottle women will be protected from you and others. I have no doubt that Trans (women) will continue to menace and harass women. The nature of men driven by sexual compulsion and delusion is to escalate. More women will be raped and killed by men who “feel” like women. Then women will have the protections and we not be sharing any space with men. At that point you guys will have to register like sex offenders and will not be allowed to even live within 100 meters of a woman. And that day can’t come soon enough.
      The middle ground is far the fuck away from me and my children.


      • I’m sorry you feel that way and feel the need to slander me as a sex offender. I can tell you that I’m nothing of the sort, but I guess you have no reason to believe me.

        Obviously something traumatic has happened to you to make you feel this way, which means I can accept the way you feel. I disagree with you, but I know that arguing with you about it is pointless.

      • Lint Says:

        Motherhood, that was amazing. Thank you for posting it.

      • truck driver logic Says:

        Motherhood,
        How you continue to debunk the obviously insane is beyond me. Thank you for doing it. I have learned so much from your posts. I used some of your words verbatim the other day at a gathering and was able to render a trans-supportive, well-intentioned but idiotic lesbian speechless. Without your words I would not have had an intelligent response to a trans propagandist. Thank you for all that you say here. I will never be invited back to this monthly gathering of “Stepford” lesbians but it was well worth it to watch the room digest what they were all thinking but too afraid to say.

      • Versa Says:

        Which words were those?

    • Versa Says:

      I haven’t read all of the replies yet, but I kinda wanted to jump in here.

      Mattie, I recognize and appreciate your desire for respectful discourse and reasonable compromise. While I am solidly on the “radfem” side when it comes to disputes between feminists and trans* people, I am a little dismayed to see some of my fellow “radfems” here responding to you in a way that comes across as “slapping you down,” as you put it. I think it would be better for our cause if we could return respect for respect. (Although I say that with some trepidation, because it can lead to us becoming overly solicitous and being TOO nice, which is a serious problem a lot of women have when we really do need to stand our ground. A lot of us have been abused precisely because we are “too nice,” and were conditioned to be because we are female.)

      You say “If the fear of violence and abuse from trans people expressed by some radical feminists is genuine, then I’m really very sorry.” I would say, similarly, that if you are sincere in saying “Every second of every day I was under extreme distress that I couldn’t deal with…” then I too am sorry, really, about your distress. It is something I truly can’t comprehend, just as people born male cannot truly comprehend women’s fear of rape and other abuse from men. I am not saying those emotions (trans distress and female fear) are equivalent, but there is the similarity that people in a certain category can never truly know how it feels to be a member of a different category.

      I appreciate your acknowledgement that trans “women” are different from actual women. That alone does a lot to earn my respect. When I hear a MtT say “I’m EXACTLY THE SAME as a cis woman” (or something to that effect), I immediately stop taking anything he says seriously. I appreciate your interest in gender neutral restrooms as a compromise rather than demanding access to women’s rooms. I have no objections to neutral restrooms in principle, although it might be costly to install them everywhere that public restrooms (sex segregated) already exist. For new constructions, they seem like a very reasonable thing to provide.

      I’ve already outlined my main objections the trans* agenda in another post on this thread, so I’ll just sum it up here by saying that if you (a) recognize and respect my belief in biology and the fact that trans “women” are not the same as born women (and vice versa for trans “men”), (b) seek to respect the comfort level of women when it comes to sex-segregated spaces such as restrooms rather than forcibly invading and demanding that we just accept it, and (c) do not promote gender stereotypes, then I really have no problem with you. It sounds to me, from what I’ve read so far (which admittedly isn’t everything from the last week or so), that all of this applies to you, Mattie. So I have no problem with you, and you have my respect.

      I do think it’s sad that your emotional/mental distress could be relieved only by “transitioning” (I assume that means some sort of bodily mutilation), but since I don’t occupy your mind, it’s certainly not for me to tell you what to do to relieve your distress. I think it’s sad — and as you say, should be a last resort — but it’s your business and your body, so it’s your choice and I don’t condemn you for it. But I do wish there were a better way, and I don’t like seeing healthy bodies treated as if they were “wrong” because of their reproductive organs.

      Anyway, that’s my $0.02, for what it’s worth.

      • GallusMag Says:

        This prick is harassing me on twitter now about how he “won” in a battle against “TERFS” by finally succeeding in getting banned. Seriously, fuck you Versa. FUCK YOU. Let me know when you are actually able to discern when these guys are lying and trolling and manipulating (and GASLIGHTING) and when they are actually genuine. Until then, fuck off with your tone-policing women who actually see what is going on.

      • Versa Says:

        I’m not policing. I’m saying I disagree. Which I do.

        Fuck me? If a MtT said that to you, you’d scream rape. So you get to say it to me, because you don’t like my comments?

        I’m sure you’ll disagree but I don’t believe we should go through life assuming everyone is our enemy before they demonstrate it. Perhaps Mattie has demonstrated it now, but he didn’t at first.

      • GallusMag Says:

        And ON MY OWN FUCKING BLOG. Hahaha! FUCK YOU VERSA. Go start your own blog.

      • Versa Says:

        Okay. I’ll leave then. Goodbye, everyone. Especially Adrian, Ashland Ave, and Mieprowan — I really appreciated a lot of your posts. Take care.

      • Lint Says:

        Did you seriously just tone police, Versa? Women have a right to be angry and a right to express their anger. As trans is inherently based on misogyny there is no reason for us to be nice about it no matter how sweetly it is presented.

      • Lint Says:

        Not surprised Mattie is now harassing you, Gallus. Men don’t like hearing “no”– that’s for sure. Mattie was boring, repetitive and deserved his ban. He served his purpose and when he got tiresome, he got put out with the rest of the trash. Cute that he counts this as victory.

      • mieprowan Says:

        I stopped reading the Mattie thread some time ago. This kind of dead horse beating is kind of typical of trolls here. As if succeeding in irritating someone enough to get kicked off her blog is some kind of stellar accomplishment. As if he had anything to say that couldn’t have been covered in a few paragraphs.

        I agree about anger. There are so many places on the Internet where men express their endless hatred of women freely without fear. Women deserve places to express their anger without feeling endlessly obliged to tailor it into presentability.

        Anyway, the answer to the OP question answers itself. Leave us alone. Agree that women have the right to choose to have no association with XY males at all. Stop assuming we owe any of you anything. Stop insisting you are entitled to anything from us. Invent your own identities and solve your own problems. Grow the fuck up.

      • GallusMag Says:

        “..Fuck me? If a MtT said that to you, you’d scream rape. ”

        OKAYYYYY. This is A MAN. This is a TRANSGENDERED MAN. There is NO WAY IN HELL a woman MUCH LESS A FEMINIST would EVER EVER SAY THIS. Good riddance “Versa”.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I have never “screamed rape”. WOW. Let’s unpack that phrase.

        Oh hell yanno what why even bother. This is a feminist site for godssakes. And VERSA IS A MAN. Who thinks women “scream rape” OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

      • redbird Says:

        I win I win I win win win. I knew he was gonna blow to anger and threats. But sorry Gallus.

        (iwin)

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Versa, I’ve enjoyed your posts. Gallus, she is on your side. Really. I doubt very much that Versa knew anything about “Mattie’s” actions on Twitter.

        The whole “tone policing” thing makes so many online (and IRL) discussions absolute minefields for women. We’re sick to death of having to sugarcoat and couch everything in sweet, polite words so as not to offend or drive away listeners (and we’re always, ALWAYS very much socialized to do that, as Versa mentioned), but at the same time, years of suppressed rage need to be voiced. And should be. But then on the other hand, we’re guilty of bowing to the enemy if we’re “too polite.” It goes back and forth, back and forth, which is the most maddening aspect of it all.

        I know in my own family, that sometimes it’s as if I have to scream and swear before I’m actually, you know, HEARD – and then I’m accused of having a bad temper or whatever! It’s like a microcosm of the rest of the world. Thankfully, I’m old enough and confident enough now to call out that bullshit. “Mattie”, I think you need to recognize (and respect) the justifiable women’s anger here, and WHY IT IS. I’d like to say that it seems like you’re on your way, but your actions on Twitter make me doubt that now.

      • GallusMag Says:

        @Ashland Ave- Doods who accuse me of “screaming rape” every time a dood sneezes are actually NOT on “my side”. Naw.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Point taken. I’m starting to get the feeling that there may be more going on here than I’m aware of, possibly? Dunno for sure….


  59. Again, I’m not sure why I can’t reply to red, but this is in response to:

    “How many times have we been over this ground? One after another they come here with the same old crap.

    You are Male. It’s not a question of what any person thinks, or who you can manipulate or bully into agreeing with you (to your face).

    it’s a fact. You’re an autogynephilic Male.

    Next comes the anger, threats, violence.”

    I have never manipulated or bullied anybody into calling me a woman or using female pronouns around me. Most people do it as a courtesy, if they have a profound disagreement I offer them the same compromise that I offered here: the use of “they” and a description as a “transsexual”.

    I agree. Physically I am a member of the male sex, with the hormone levels typically associated with women. Female fat distribution on a male skeleton, basically. I don’t pretend that that makes me the same a a biological female, but I’m asking you to accept that that also makes me different from a biological male.

    As I said, I really think the trans movement needs to move away from “othering” rhetoric, because it is unhelpful and inflammatory. We are different, and we should embrace that.

    From what I understand of autogynephilia, the theory does not apply to me. I derive no sexual pleasure from the idea of myself as a woman. It’s a fact.

    I hope you understand that I’m not here to be angry, make threats or behave violently. The post invited a discussion, and I’ve come to take part.


  60. On the gender neutral bathroom point, which was raised by Ashland Avenue and Mieprowan, I would say a gender neutral bathroom should just be a third set of stalls that anybody can use. It protects women’s right to female only space, but gives me somewhere to go where I don’t feel either like I’m violating space or under threat of violence.

    On the locker and changing room points, I think a separate gender neutral section is the way to go too. Perhaps the way to do this is to take a leaf out of the German book, where bathrooms and locker rooms at train stations have an attendant who would be able to direct trans people towards the gender neutrals and stop people who are obviously looking to abuse people from getting into them.

    It is complicated though. At my university there are gender neutral toilets in a few of the clubs, but my female flatmates always insist that I use the ladies with them. I’m not really sure how to approach that situation.

    • Lint Says:

      You should show some compassion and use the gender neutral toilets. I don’t care if you’ve manged to get some women to agree with you. That doesn’t give you license to invade female space. You’ve seen women say over and over that they do not want you in their bathroom– and yet you choose to ignore their voices. Why do you listen to some women and not to others?


      • Oh no, I wasn’t ignoring your voices; I was more wondering which women I should ignore. I generally use the gender neutrals anyway.

      • Versa Says:

        I get that you don’t want to snub your flatmates, but if you’re out in public, the PUBLIC women’s restroom does not belong to your flatmates. There may be other women in there, strangers to you, who will be made uncomfortable by your presence. It’s nice that your flatmates enjoy your company, but they are being very inconsiderate by not even thinking about the other women in public.

      • Lint Says:

        You shouldn’t ignore any women, Mattie. Declining an invitation to the woman’s bathroom– which by the way your female friends have no business issuing– is not ignoring them.

      • redbird Says:

        Your flatmates just told you they regard you as male. See, women (real women) slip into “doormate” automatically, and they defer to what they think will make the Male happy with them.

        Both, what they unconsiously do, and your feigning what you think is female — oh whatevah will ah do, the kindness uv strangahs etc.– prove you are Male.


  61. GallusMag – again I can’t reply directly, so sorry if this seems like I don’t know how to use a comments section.

    “There has been no mudslinging. There has been a conversation. You just ignored the things women said because you did not like them. And now you want me to spend my time doing what for you?

    Several women including myself have been kind enough to have a discussion with you. This is an unmoderated post (except in cases of repetitive abuse) so you can say what you want but you are mistaken if you think women owe you anything, including myself. Sorry you were unwilling to listen and engage. Sorry but not the least bit surprised. Good day to you sir.”

    To be fair, you repeatedly casted aspersions as to what I thought or was saying. That is what I meant by mudslinging.

    If I’ve missed something, I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure I addressed every point that was made. I guess sometimes I just said “I disagree”, which is a bit of a cop-out, but I felt that there was no point in raking over the tired old battle-lines in a thread looking for compromise and reconciliation.

    Honestly, I don’t think you owe me anything. If you choose to end the discussion (which I think you might have) then this’ll be my last post. I’m not replying to you to try to drag you back in, just to respond to the things you’ve said for the benefit of other people.

    Obviously there have been a lot of misguided trans activists that have been abusive and threatening. The whole “Die Cis Scum” thing really gets on my nerves. In fact, more than that – it absolutely terrifies me.

    Unfortunately, I think that this is what happens when people exist in a feedback loop by talking to the same people, reinforcing their opinions and dismissing people they disagree with – they get more and more extreme. This might be a contentious thing to say, but I think some radfem activists may have been guilty of this too, which is why I think a discussion like this is important.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Educate yourself in using the comment function on a blog with NESTED comments please. Do this before submitting further comments or your comment will not be published. Thank you.

    • Lint Says:

      There can be no compromise or reconciliation because what you are doing is wrong and hurtful. You’re reenforcing destructive gender stereotypes and invading female space. There is no way you are ever going to get RadFems to agree with you.


      • This isn’t about getting Radfems to agree with me. There are thousands of other clashing ideologies in the world: Marxism vs Capitalism, Islam vs Christianity, Conservatism vs Liberalism. I would never expect everybody to wake up one day and suddenly have a hive mind.
        What I’m trying to see is whether we can respectfully co-exist, which involves giving a little ground on both sides. If you genuinely think there is no way you can live in a world with trans people in it then I’m sorry.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Yeah, Mattie you are super manipulative and super transparent. Perhaps time to give it a rest bro.

      • Lint Says:

        No, we cannot respectfully co-exist. You’re here to promote gender stereotypes, I’m here to tear them down. We will never see eye to eye.


      • GM:

        I presume this means that you won’t be approving my comments anymore. I’m sorry if I’m coming across as manipulative, that was not my intention.

        Lint:

        I respect your point of view, but I’m actually not trying to promote gender stereotypes, which I thought I’d explained. Anything I do that is stereotypically masculine or feminine is because of who I am as a person: it has nothing to do with sex or gender (which I agree with you is confining, patriarchal bullshit) and it certainly has nothing to do with what I perceive a woman to be.

        Fair enough if you don’t trust or believe me, but there’s nothing I can do to prove the veracity of what I’m saying other than to tell you that it is what I actually think.

        I respect GM for posing this question and opening this up for discussion and I respect that my viewpoint has been vehemently disagreed with.

        If none of you wish to engage with me anymore, that’s fine.

        Thank you for your time.

      • Lint Says:

        “but I’m actually not trying to promote gender stereotypes”

        It’s doesn’t matter what you are trying to do. You ARE promoting gender stereotypes weather you mean to or not.


      • Given everything I’ve said about my lack of belief in gender. Given how I’ve differentiated my view from trans orthodoxy. Given how I’ve tried to find areas of compromise, I only have one question.

        How so?

      • GallusMag Says:

        MATTIE YOU HAVE BEEN ANSWERED REPEATEDLY. STOP BADGERING. WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU MAN?

      • GallusMag Says:

        YOUUUUUUU HAVVVVVEEEEEE BEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNN ANSWEREDDDDDDDDDDDDDD REPEATEDLYYYYYYYYY. Do you “not hear” when women speak??? Holy shit.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I swear to god this prick can’t hear women talk.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I’m invoking the Darlie clause here.

      • GallusMag Says:

        I have my limits.

      • Lint Says:

        This is about more than you and your feelings Mattie. Please stop being so narcissistic and self involved. It doesn’t matter what intentions or delusions you have. What matters is what you do. And what do you do? You pretend to be a woman and invade our space. You are a man and you have no right, no authority to claim the title of woman.

      • Lint Says:

        Gallus, what’s the Darlie clause? I’m new around here.

      • Lint Says:

        Oh duh, Gallus. Sorry I totally blanked out darliegoddess because I didn’t bother reading the drivel😡

      • Versa Says:

        LOL. Darlie was very much like a mosquito whining in our ears until he finally got squashed.

        I honestly didn’t think Mattie was in the same league as Darlie, and I would have liked for him to answer the question I posed (basically, what does it mean to be a MtT trans person if he doesn’t, as he said, “feel like a woman”?). But, okay. I accept and respect the decision to block him. Sorry I didn’t ask sooner — I’m just now getting caught up on this thread.

      • GallusMag Says:

        a sensible choice.

  62. Dianne Says:

    Wow! “What would it take to resolve the great divide between the practice of genderism (“Transgender”) and the liberation of women (“Feminism”) ?” It sounded interesting at first. Then I realized it was basically bait to get trans people to post comments so they could get bashed. Or maybe like these guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglerfish .

    Anyway, what would it take to resolve the divide? People sitting down and talking face to face who have the shared goal of resolving the great divide. This would come with some mutual trust. Note that this is not, “People sitting down face to face with the goal of showing how much they despise each other.”

    I know, I know… It could never happen because “they” are not like “us” and would never agree to not attack first. “They” don’t know how to engage in reasoned discourse because of . In the mean time the Far Right social “reformers” are thrilled to see people that they don’t like fighting with each other. You know, groups like the Pacific Justice Institute. Those are the same ones that support homosexual conversion therapy and fight against same sex marriage.

    • redbird Says:

      I think transgendering and/or SRS is homosexual conversion therapy.

      I am against same-sex marriage. I’m also against eugenics, castration, surgical mutilation, males appropriating Female, and one of the partners in a couple being legally subjugated to the other.

    • Motherhood Says:

      You are wrong. They are not the same. Many people could not have cared less about same sex marriage but oh yeah they care if some guy wants to get off in womens safe spaces. They are not women and they will all be sobbing into their piss stained undies begging the courts so they can sue. They are men–and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot or playing with their own dick. If you imagine that future for the dudes is bright and happy I would pay to see the expresion of your face when the whole thing is compared to Nazi medical experiments. Trans is conversion therapy.

      • Dianne Says:

        So I guess, Motherhood and Redbird, the two sides can’t resolve the great divide because the one side is just totally ridiculous masturbators who hide in toilets and the other side has a pure and righteous agenda of getting rid of trans people because they are sick and ridiculous masterbators who hide in toilets. And the trans people are just party to homosexual conversion therapy. OK, just wanted to figure out why the two sides can’t sit down and now I get it. Thanks!

      • GallusMag Says:

        Funny how you spoof women but give men (like yourself) a total fly-over. Is “your side” too gross to caricature? Or are women “all to blame” for this divide by our “sillyness”? Or both.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Give ’em enough rope.

      • Motherhood Says:

        No divide Dianne. You are a male–creepy sexually compulsive women hating male. I am not crossing that divide to suck you off sir. GM is right you have the rope we’ll wait for you to put on your garter and the fishnets—auto erotic asphyxia. The Real woman way to go

  63. Dianne Says:

    GallusMag, Oddly I can’t respond to your response to my comment, so this is out of the thread. I am not spoofing anyone. I stumbled into this thread thinking someone was actually interested in bridging the gap between the communities. What I saw showed a lot of preconceptions and ridicule, on both sides. It showed me that no one really had any interest in reasonable dialog, from either side. I see angry people. I see the same kind of no compromise non-dialog that we see in our politics. You are by self definition completely right and trans people are completely wrong. Did I miss some subtlety? We have no right to exist because you have defined us as sick. Correct? Then why ask how the divide can be bridged? You want to keep the divide active so we can be “them” and you can ridicule us. That’s fine. I’m sure in this posting I have proven my flaws and my idiocy and my incapability to understand. But do you want me to understand? Or do you just want to punish me and prove that I am irredeemable?

    • GallusMag Says:

      Please educate yourself on how on how to post comments on a blog with NESTED comments. Thank you. Do this before posting further comments or your comments will not be posted.

      And yes, you did spoof women while giving a total pass to the outrageous misbehavior on “your side” that these women are responding to.

      We are asking that you become radical feminist allies by abandoning your claims that females are defined by stereotypes. It is that simple. You are not female. You are male. Gender-nonconforming males are allies to feminists. We are asking you to step up and do that, instead of what you are doing.

      • Dianne Says:

        OK, so the two sides can come together if I step up and say that you are right? And the other choice is to strangle myself with fetish stockings? I would heartily agree that we are all victims of the patriarchy. 41% of trans people are so damaged that they attempt or commit suicide. Many trans and queer youth live painful lives of ridicule and torment. But you try to fix us by being even harsher than the patriarchy. How does that win anyone over?

      • mieprowan Says:

        We don’t want to win you over, we are in defensive mode. We want you to stop insisting on your right to violate women’s space just because you want to be a woman.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Say “I am Right?”. What sort of male-fuckery is this? You ARE MALE. YOU ARE A MALE HUMAN BEING. HENCE=TRANSGENDER.

        If your statistic of 41% suicide attempt rate is correct you match suicide attempt rates for individuals diagnosed with bulimia and bi-polar disorder. Yes, you are damaged. That is what we are addressing here.

        “But you try to fix us by being even harsher than the patriarchy” Okay SIR this is where you are INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE to ACTUAL FEMALES under RAPE CULTURE. SO FUCKING OFFENSIVE, DERANGED, and HATEFUL TOWARDS ACTUAL FEMALES. Women who parse false cultural sex roles are “HARSHER (Towards far more important lives: male ones!) THAN” what women endure under the sex-based caste system THAT THEY CRITIQUE. UGH. The disconnect from actual female lives- could your male supremacy be any more clear? Answer: No. No more clear. Holy shit. You guys are too fucking much. So disgusting.

      • GallusMag Says:

        You hateful bastards lacking all compassion have NO IDEA what it means to be female. Your freakish attacks against women who protest our caste by CLAIMING WE ARE WORSE (towards males) THAN THE SEX-BASED SLAVERY males inflict upon us IS AN INDEFENSIBLE TRANSPARENTLY PUKE ATTACK. EWWWWWWWWWWW. PUKE.

      • Dianne Says:

        OK, I didn’t really know how wide “the great divide between the practice of genderism (“Transgender”) and the liberation of women (“Feminism”)” was. Now I do. I’ll just keep pushing against society’s expectations from my corner and you can push from your corner. Either way it will move societal thinking away from inflexible expectations, that will help in the long run.

      • Lint Says:

        As Mieprowan says we aren’t trying to win you over. There is no reason for us to be nice and sweetly ask that you stop invading our space and hurting us. It’s pointless and useless.

        And I find it hilarious that you dare to compare our mere words on a blog with the patriarchy ( a physical reality of murder, rape, violence, and subjugation). You are totally full of shit and cannot handle criticism.

      • GallusMag Says:

        “. I’ll just keep pushing against society’s expectations from my corner and you can push from your corner. Either way it will move societal thinking away from inflexible expectations, that will help in the long run.”

        Claiming women are CRUEL against males and WORSE THAN PATRIARCHY: slavery, rape, murder when we discuss the sex-based caste system; Claiming you are “a woman” as a male based on your enjoyment of stereotypes inflicted on females from birth ENFORCED BY VIOLENCE has NOTHING TO DO with helping actual women. You are the ANTI-FEMINISM.

      • GallusMag Says:

        OMG the dude telling women he knows better than us what will “help” us. OH MY GOD.

      • mieprowan Says:

        Whenever men say they know what women need better than we do I consider it rape-enabling talk.

      • Dianne Says:

        My comment that, “I’ll just keep pushing against society’s expectations from my corner and you can push from your corner. Either way it will move societal thinking away from inflexible expectations, that will help in the long run.” isn’t saying that I know what is best to help feminists. It’s saying that anyone who pushes against gender or sexual roles helps loosen those roles. I think that those cultural boundaries do a lot of harm. Hopefully broadening people’s perspective helps everyone.

        A very butch woman from my city was beaten harshly by a guy in the parking lot of a casino in Nevada. She was beaten because the guy’s girlfriend read her as trans in the women’s room and complained to the guy. So this woman was beaten because they thought she was trans. Is it the fault of trans people because we’ve confused people? Is it the fault of Nevada macho cowboy culture that violently enforces gender roles? If that guy had understood that gender isn’t a binary polar opposite divide, this butch woman wouldn’t have gotten beaten. That is what I think can be fixed.

      • Lint Says:

        “Claiming women are CRUEL against males and WORSE THAN PATRIARCHY: slavery, rape, murder when we discuss the sex-based caste system; Claiming you are “a woman” as a male based on your enjoyment of stereotypes inflicted on females from birth ENFORCED BY VIOLENCE has NOTHING TO DO with helping actual women. You are the ANTI-FEMINISM.”

        GET HIM, GALLUS!!!!!!

        I am in awe of Mr. Dianne telling us that we are harsher than the patriarchy because we won’t give in to his demands. How spoiled and entitled do you have to be to compare your getting burned on a blog with the real world reality of millions of women at the hands of men? Really Mr. Dianne, you are narcissistic to an extreme.

      • GallusMag Says:

        @Dianne- You’re a man whose political platform claims that sex roles are so innate that when men perform “wrong role” behaviors they actually BECOME FEMALE. Because magic.
        This helps no one.

    • mieprowan Says:

      Dianne, the whole problem is that M2T’s insist they have the right to be us. Medical intervention does not give you that right, nor do your feelings. Men aren’t women, dogs aren’t cats. You don’t get to just decide your way into being what you are not, that’s magical thinking.

      • Dianne Says:

        Mieprowan, I self identify as a trans woman. I won’t be a woman and I’m not a man. I’ve never molested anyone and have done my best to just live my life with dignity. I don’t have a right to be you but I do have a right to be me. I have had to work very hard to do it because society demands me to be a certain way based on a fluke of genetics. So do you agree that I should live a certain way based on society’s dominating expectations?

      • mieprowan Says:

        Dianne, transwomen are all about trying to trick people into believing they’re women and/or trying to tell women that transwomen are more womanly than we are. As a class, you’re a royal pain in the ass. You do nothing for women, all you do is make demands and threaten. Just like other men. And then you get all suicidal because somebody called you a man. More threats. Oh, and we’re all horrible bigots because we don’t appreciate your ongoing abusive efforts to jerk us around.

      • Lint Says:

        Dianne, what things make you a “trans woman”?

      • Lint Says:

        That’s an interesting point Mieprowan and one that I’m embarrassed to say that I’ve never considered. I can’t think of one thing transwomen have done to help further feminism. All they seem to be about is demands for our space, our bodies, our rights.

    • Lint Says:

      “But do you want me to understand?”

      I want you to understand that you are a man. I want you understand that your aping of us is misogynistic and cruel. I want you to understand that you have no right to claim to be a woman and that by doing so, you colonize and invade our space.

      • GallusMag Says:

        CRUEL. Dianne is CRUEL.

      • Lint Says:

        Indeed Gallus. I find it hard to believe how oblivious some of these tans people are when it comes to the pain they choose to inflict. Like they could ever hope to get their imitation of us right? Like it could ever be anything more than a insult?

        And our verbal objections to this nonsense are “harsher than the patriarchy”? LOL. Yes, truly, when women refuse to play along and be nice, it’s just as bad as murder.

      • red Says:

        They are completely oblivious to real women’s lives. The millions tortured, beaten, raped, sexually exploited. Damn you can’t even pick up a newspaper or read a news site without dozens of stories about women being abused in one way or another by men. Ignorant, narcissistic and just childish. And remember this is only Males. Females are not stalking, harassing and threatening gay or straight males, swarming their chats and blogs. Just autogynephilic fetishistic MtTs.

        We never go to their sites. They come here, and tell us how cruel WE are to them. Delusional. I have no sympathy, only justified fear and loathing.

  64. SheilaG Says:

    These are very important questions for the transworld. “Acting” like a woman, getting your body altered to “look like” a woman, all of this is imitating a patriarchal idea of who women are supposed to be. But this is not who women are. It looks to us like black face, like whites playing Indians in 1950s Hollywood movies–it is about appropriation. Trans have done nothing to advance the cause of feminism, all they do is demand to invade our spaces, to demand sexual access to our bodies, because THEY say they are women. Well no male to trans are not women. They are playing a role forced on women by male supremacy, and this is a huge difference. They are trying to “pass as white” and passing is not the same as changing the world and ending the need for anyone to “pass” to get along in a sexist, racism world. This simple demand of women to not be subjected to yet more male invasion and colonization is lost on the trans, because they are men, and they will not listen to women. They are setting the cause of feminism back, they are not advancing the rights of women or our desire for male free space.

    • Dianne Says:

      Sheila, your points are not lost on me. And I respect your analogy of trying to pass as white. I would love nothing more than to change the world and break down gender roles. But while that is happening, and it is happening, I have to live in a world where there are two clear accepted gender roles. If I try to carve out space in between I get hassled and can’t get work. As disrespected and marginalized as trans women are, if I work at passing and “looking respectable” I can go through my life pretty smoothly. If I buy in to the gender binary and choose a side I can get by. So in essence it is a lot like black people who worked to pass as white during the Jim Crow era. It was a resistant path of least resistance. And like people who worked to pass as white, there is a huge risk of being discovered and “corrected” by both parties. And yes, it usually centers on the bathroom. So both sides defend their gender roles and impose penalties for infractions. And feminists defend their spaces and want to keep out invaders. And men defend their spaces and want to keep out pansies and queers. Men hang offenders on fences in Montana (Matthew Shepard) and women kick trans women into seizures in Baltimore (Chrissy Polis). Yes, it’s wrong and it needs to be fixed. I am in between man and woman and I am both man and woman. Day to day I have to pick one, and only one, and it has to stay congruent from day to day.

      Here the obvious vote is that I pick up my “piss stained panties” and my “fishnet stockings” and be a man of some sort. In the fundamentalist Christian world I’m supposed to be punished and shunned and will burn in hell. And it’s because I am breaking the same “rules” that I am accused of perpetuating. Please realize, this is not a boo hoo plea for sympathy. I really don’t want sympathy at all. And I totally want gender barriers to drop away. And I work in my way to do that. We all want rigid gender barriers to drop away so we can just “be” without pain or danger.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Correction : drunken Chrissy Lee Polis got in a fight with two teenaged girls because one of them accused him of flirting with “her man”. It had nothing to do with “women’s spaces” or restrooms or even transgenderism. Also, Polis had at least THREE “priors” where he was charged with violently assaulting females. One of the victims was his grandmother. Please stop with the “pur, pur transwoman attacked by transphobic women when they’re just tryin to peeee” bullshit. Thanks.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Damn, I did not know that about Polis. About his history, I mean. I guess it was just deemed too damaging to the trans narrative to be allowed into the news coverage. Once again, women are expected by the LGBTQMNOP consortium to support a man who is violent towards women, simply because he likes to wear dresses. Damn.

      • moss Says:

        also it’s just emerging that the Matthew Shepard murder was more about drugs (meth) than his homosexuality- I think it’s too late to undo his martyr status though

    • Motherhood Says:

      I call bullshit. You Dianne want to break down nothing because you are so soaked in male privilege you leave a wet spot on the floor. Trans is the epicenter of male because it is based only on what gets you hard. You bro have never had your ass kicked and never been raped. That’s only in your “like it like that” misogynistic porn soaked clichéd mind. More of the sexual fantasy that you call life and try to shove down women’s throats. You get off on talking victim and victimizing women. You want to get on with your life? What life is that? The compulsion, trying to see how far you can push you sexual fantasy? You are not in between woman and anything you are a man in between liar and narcissistic sociopath—that’s male has nothing to do with women. You have as much to do with being a woman as I have with being the next Czar of Russia. A violent aggressive man dressed en fem got kicked in Baltimore. That guy is just like you—he attacks woman, and you find it so arousing to imagine him as victim—sick sadist, sick, sick. Does it turn you on make you feel all weak and girly.
      We are rid of gender sir that is your myth. Women know that there is no gender there is only biological sex. Crawl your
      Shut the fuck up with your stupid ploys—Mathew Shepard—I know you got a bondage fantasy going on—poor you. You are the danger, the only danger. You’re a dangerous deluded male who has a life based on his arousal—you, are a danger to all women, always and forever.

      Your fetish is not a civil right. Your fetish is 100% male privelege.

  65. Bev Jo Says:

    Once, again, “transwomen” do not exist. Translizards do not either, even though that man sure spent a lot on his tattooing, split tongue, head horns, and other body modification.

    Once again, it’s not about “socialization” or “body dysphoria” or any of the other cons that men who demand we accept them as women and as Lesbians play. It’s simple. Men appropriating our identity. Some are self-hating gay men and want to be considered het women with men. (And that’s where the danger for them lies — when they try to trick het men, which many gay-identified men who prefer to come onto het men have also found.) And some are het men who want access to Lesbians.

    Nothing new in any of this other than the surgery and hormones are big business, and many of these men have convinced too many women they don’t even need to have surgery or hormones to be “real women.”

    Just talk to them, look at them, listen to them, and it is clear that they are not and never will be women. They don’t even learn how to fake it better after decades of destroying women only space and re-writing Lesbian history.

    Women are usually too compassionate already with men who oppress them. So why should we be even more? How about the men who are oppression us be a bit compassionate and just stop.

    If women accept men who say they are women, then they should accept the able-bodied man who says he is a “transparaplegic Lesbian.

    https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/national-geographic-taboo-fake-paraplegic-chloe-jennings-white/

    So far, no one has. Pro-trans cult proponents just wish we would stop talking about him, but he is extremely relevant because his reasons for being “transparaplegic” are EXACTLY the same trans cult lines.

    And yes, Gallus Mag is right. The men who won’t take now for an answer will never get enough, no matter how much women sell out other women, Lesbians, little girls who are terrified to see men in public restrooms, etc. These are men who do not take no for an answer. I always ask, how many have already raped and sexually assaulted women? We know that M2T violence rate is very high.

    And Daisy, it does not help you to keep calling men “transwomen.” Nor does lecturing us about the “Second Wave,” which is not a term I have ever used and which divides us, as if the Radical Lesbian Feminists in their twenties are different politically from those of us who have been Radical Lesbian Feminists for 43 plus years.

    You say you left our movement, but I never did. I’ve been here since being a teenager. The classism and elitism is in every movement that allows in the privileged, but it’s interesting that you don’t seem to have realized that the majority of Radical Lesbian feminists were and are class-oppressed.

    Sorry, Iris, but men who send us rape and clitorectomy and death threats ARE the enemy. That is the “transgender” you advocate for. Please read the archives here and learn what they are doing to us, have done to us, etc.

    No, Dianne, “we are not all victims of patriarchy.” Men claiming to be women and Lesbians ARE patriarchy who are victimizing Lesbians and other women.

    Just give up. We will never accept you as women or as Lesbians. This is about your not taking no for an answer, which is as male as you can get.

  66. SheilaG Says:

    Why don’t men who have entered the trans cult simply say they want to be gender non-conforming men. It really is that simple. Now go ahead and do this, but you are not women, you are men playing a role that YOU … MALES define as female, but it is male naming, and male role playing. Males MAKE born women conform to their stupid roles.
    Now you expect us to go along with your play acting without saying you have nothing to offer feminism, nothing to offer but male supremacy?

    And FYI, I’ve had to deal…

  67. SheilaG Says:

    … I’ve had to deal with stupid straight women who think I look male in restrooms for over 36 years now, but hey, who’s counting. Now I have to deal with these creepo males in dresses invading lesbian bars and hiting on lesbians. Well, I am sick of men in women’s spaces period, and I think you simply support the gender status quo which is male supremacy. Males are the oppressors, and that what you are Mr. just another oppressor of women. No go and just be a gender non-conforming gay man, just deal, and get the heck out of women’s lives. Just leave, get out of our culture, get out of our bars, get out of our restrooms and go confront males! Change males and leave women alone.

  68. SheilaG Says:

    These men just can’t seem to admit that they are men, they aren’t women, they want to not dress like men. Well don’t dress like men then, but you have no right to say you are women. Stay out of our lives, go confront the men who rule the patriarchy, go protest outside the Vatican, go invade male only spaces and say you as a dress wearing gender non-conforming MAN have a right to be in all MALE spaces. Go do it, but leave women alone, you are a threat, a potential rapist a danger to women. You prey on us because you can and because you don’t have the guts to confront men because YOU are afraid of being beaten up by MEN. Wow, but you think it is ok to threaten our spaces, threaten women, invade our culture, you think that is fine and dandy you male invader and fraud! We are so sick of you! You are basically wolves in sheep’s clothing and you expect women to just accomodate your fake female selves! Sheesh.

  69. SheilaG Says:

    Gallus’ comments— brilliant, to the point! This is the entire reason for trans invasion of women’s spaces, both het and homo. This is why Male to trans are terrorizing Michigan, why they are barging into changing rooms, why they are attacking radical feminist conferences and women who expose ex-husbands for their trans delusions.

    “Re: “affront to feminism” and “neurological gender”:

    Those who support women’s liberation do not believe that human feelings, affinities, abilities and intellectual capacity unrelated to sexual reproduction (dolls for girls, trucks for boys) are …”

    This is possibly your best post ever GM!

  70. Nicky Says:

    I guess I’m late to the party, and as someone who identifies as a (closeted) autogynephilic male, I can’t claim to understand the perspectives of the feminist and transgender movements to the same extent as the other posters, and apologize if I’m grossly leveraging my privilege and “mansplaining.” However, I have a proposed answer to the question.

    I think that working to undo the demonization of the status of the autogynephilic male would help resolve the divide.

    I agree I have “narcissistic naval-gazing (sic) male feelings”, and that I cannot assume that they “relate to the female experience in any way” because I cannot experience the qualia of being another person any more than Ray Blanchard can experience the qualia of being an autogynephile. But why is a man with autogynephila “JUST” a man with autogynephilia. Why is he a “dirt bag”? Is a narcissist not a person, too? What’s inherently wrong with having a fetish? (Hopefully we’re not radical enough to be sex-negative here. Also in my experience, autogynephilia is not purely sexual but also associated with feelings of love and attachment to oneself.) Why is “loathing” of the autogynephilic male “justified” a priori? Is autogynephilia necessarily “aping” and inherently “misogynistic”? Is a female strapping on a dildo “aping” and misandrist?

    I can’t speak for other autogynephilic males, or non-autogynephilic gender-dysphoric males, transsexuals, or transgender persons, but for me autogynephilic feelings are associated with a deep sense of shame. I believe this shame arises from the same patriarchal forces which feminists (including myself if you will permit me to share this identification) seek to dismantle. Those in power always reserve the greatest punishment for defectors, and thus the patriarchy has a vested interest in demonizing autogynephilic males.

    In my opinion, the three-caste gender hierarchy which some of the posters propose actualizing already exists. Men are certainly on the top, but it’s not women on the bottom–it’s feminine-presenting males. Relegating them to this position ensures that the enforcement of the patriarchy via the gender system goes un-questioned by those in power (men). This is pure conjecture, but I think natal male transgender persons want to be called women not only because it satisfies their fantasies and alleviates their dysphoria regarding being male, but also because it scoops them up out of the gender hierarchy’s lowest lows.

    I’d love nothing more than to “protest outside of the Vatican, go invade male only spaces and say [I] as a dress wearing gender non-conforming MAN have a right to be in all MALE spaces.” But it ain’t ever going to happen. Why? Because (1) I like breathing, and (2) I have a family that I love dearly and am unwilling to submit to my shame. I can’t even bring myself to be gender non-conforming on my front doorstep. Call me a coward, but that’s the way it is.

    If feminists want to overturn the patriarchy, they should stop aligning themselves with it by maligning gender non-conforming males.

    • GallusMag Says:

      First of all, thank you for commenting in the appropriate thread and not derailing another conversation (or forcing me to moderate you for doing so.) You have no idea how much I appreciate this!

      Second: feminists including radical feminists DO NOT malign gender non-conforming males. We consider them allies.

      Third: I agree with you that de-stigmatizing autogynephilia should be the central goal of the transgender movement- and inevitably WILL BE. The transgender movement is at heart a male sexual rights movement.

      • Nicky Says:

        Thank you for expressing your appreciation regarding posting the belated in the correct thread. I figured it wouldn’t be read much, but I like to keep quiet anyway. Come to think of it, this may be the first time I’ve actually posted on any blog. I’m more of a reader than a writer.

        May I rephrase my suggestion? Stop maligning gender non-conforming males, including those who claim (however rightfully or wrongfully) to be “women.” If you want to understand and prevent transgender rage, cf. http://www.annelawrence.com/shame_&_narcissistic_rage.pdf.

        I appreciate your agreement that de-stigmatizing autogynephilia would be valuable, but I think you underestimate the gravity of the transgender movement when you restrict its focus to sexual rights. The phenomenon of cross-gender arousal is not mutually exclusive with “trauma” and issues of “social survival”. My experience (which you cannot claim to understand if I cannot claim to understand a woman’s experience) has led me to seriously contemplate suicide on multiple occasions; I assure you that was not out of sexual frustration. Currently, my survival relies on mindfulness meditation. Maybe some day I’ll succumb to the transgender movement’s groupthink and identify myself with “woman,” but currently I’d say I’m anti-gender. Unfortunately not everyone has received the memo that shoehorning children into accepting differentiated, prescribed, hierarchical social roles and values is fucked, and (if I may generalize my experience) I hypothesize that when adult males wake up to how it has distorted them and restricted their freedom, they end up very confused because they have received the message that their gender is “better than” rather than “less than,” and they have to resolve a tangled mess of cognitive dissonance over their discomfort with gender. For me, less than a year has lapsed since the initial realization I might be genderqueer/transgender/whathaveyou and am very confused and scared. Anyway, you have all of these confused, malleable refugees defecting and subverting the gender hierarchy, and looking for anything onto which they can hook their senses of self, and you’re turning them away when you could be re-educating them and working with them to achieve your goals! I can understand (or rather imagine and try to understand) your fear. However, while the movement may seem like a Trojan horse, it’s not.


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