There is no pressure to transition…There is no pressure to transition…There is no pressure to transition…

June 12, 2014

 

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Questioning if trans is different than butch?(self.asktransgender)

submitted 6 hours ago by mrhorseass

I’ve always been gender non-conforming, like acting like a tomboy and preferring male clothing. During puberty I felt intense distress about getting breasts and curves. Throughout my life I felt masculine and comfortable with a flat chest so puberty was very hard to go through. As a result of this I wore baggy clothing and jackets during the summers. I have strong feelings of body dysphoria. My body is my main source of distress. Being called female or she does not bother me too much but my real struggle right now is my body. For a while I was convinced that I was trans but after reading a couple blogs from radfems I began considering that maybe trans does not exist and instead these feelings are grown from the gender binary in society. I once believed trans was a medically condition so I had no problem going through with it but now that I feel it is not so I can no longer transition. This is terrible because I still have imtense feelings of body dysphoria and am very uncomfortable in my own skin.

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[–]Bobmuffins 15 points 6 hours ago

Don’t listen to TERFs. Being trans is pretty well medically documented as A Real Thingtm.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 6 hours ago

The reason I feel uncomfortable is because I cannot reconcile my feelings of masculinity with my curves, breasts etc… Isn’t this because we were raised in a society that forced female sex into a feminine role? How can one feel like the opposite sex if there is no one way to feel it because cisgender people have very different ways of expression. When trans people say how they knew they were trans they say it was because they were gender non conforming but that doesn’t mean anything because even cisgender people can be gender non conforming. If I weren’t raised in a society that differentiated males and females so strongly and if I didn’t form my identity with the males because of my gender nonconformity then my female body would not have caused me so much distress. If bodies were just bodies then my female sex wouldn’t interfere with the way I felt and wanted to be seen. The problem is that in this society sex and gender are.so strongly intertwined that it is almost impossible for someone like myself to feel truly masculine in my female body.

 

[–]Bobmuffins 5 points 5 hours ago

Simple question: Are you uncomfortable with your body? Or just your social role?

Because your body isn’t dictated by your social role. If you don’t like having breasts, for example, that has nothing to do with wanting “the male social role”.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 5 hours ago*

My body is my source of distress. I look into the mirror and see what I do not expect I want a flat chest and muscles, no vagina and honestly facial hair would be nice. But what I’m saying is that these feelings might stem from the assumptions made about the sexes since the minute we come out of the womb. I would like to transition but knowing what I know now or think I know is what is preventing me because radfems say that to transition is just shame and self-loathing at its peak.

 

[–]TurtleTape24/FTM/pre-stuff 6 points 5 hours ago

Reading the musings of radfems and the like and taking it to heart is like a black person reading the writings of a member of the KKK and hating themself for it.

Everything you’re saying screams that you’re trans, and humoring the thoughts of these toxic groups is not going to help you.

 

[–]Bobmuffins 4 points 5 hours ago

Even if they do, so what?

You’re uncomfortable with your body regardless of the source. Your body can be changed.

So why not look into changing it?

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 3 points 5 hours ago

Actually right now I’m working out and trying to lose body fat to achieve a les feminine appearance. If this does not ease my feelings of dysphoria then I don’t know.

           

[–]Bobmuffins 5 points 5 hours ago

Then consider talking to a therapist about it, if that doesn’t work.

       

[–]RevengeOfSalmacis28 mtf, hormones since 2/1 1 point 2 hours ago

So you’re willing to change your body to suit your possibly-sexist conceptions of masculine and feminine–by defeminizing it to legitimate your masculine feelings–but only by exercise and weight loss? Why is that a legitimate body change and transition not? It’s your body, and your reasons are the same either way.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] [score hidden] an hour ago

I guess because losing weight and gaining muscle are neutral things and don’t imply that one wants to be male. Some people just prefer the muscular square look without meaning to attribute these characteristics to gender surgery on the other hand completely removes targeted areas associated with gender including some parts that cannot be seen such as the vagina and ovaries. A woman can be woman even though she is masculine and appears muscular or flat chested. Removing the breast surgically is an active step to desex oneself though.

 

[–]RevengeOfSalmacis28 mtf, hormones since 2/1 [score hidden] an hour ago

I guess, but your motives aren’t neutral at all–you’re doing it to be less female/more male, am I right? Does radfem ideology not care about the motivation behind the action, only the action in its single abstract political context?

            

[–]sharbeornTransgender girl of 14 years [score hidden] 44 minutes ago

Transition isn’t about shame. Transition is about becoming who you want to be. And trans is definitely a real thing, ignore rad fems who say it isn’t. I feel a dysphoria about my body and have sometimes had little “feminine” habits but I also now feel an increasing urge to be a female in society. It used to not matter so much, after all I disconnect from society anyway, but sometimes these things grow on you.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 5 hours ago

My social role does not bother me because thankfully I have the freedom to express myself however I want. I like my short hair and wear male clothing out of preference and I don’t feel pressured to fit into a feminine role. My struggles are my body because I feel masculine or “butch” but when I look into the mirror I see a feminine face and body looking back at me. I’m starting to think this is because society and how the female sex carry’s more than just physical differences but also carry’s femininity. It is almost impossible to escape this feeling of imbalance when I look into the mirror but now I feel I have to accept my body and believe it is masculine no matter what I feel. This will be hard and if I never reach peace maybe transitioning will be my only option.

 

[–]Bobmuffins 4 points 5 hours ago

but now I feel I have to accept my body and believe it is masculine no matter what I feel.

…Why?

You don’t like your body. You can change your body. You only get one body, ever.

So why not change it if you don’t like it?

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 4 hours ago

Its a whole jumble of reasons. I can’t imagine transitioning and still feeling dysphoria that would be terrible. I will always have a vagina unless I get the surgery. And third I do loathe my body and being female this affirms the radfem ideaolgy of the patriarchy making me hate my body. I feel like if I transition I will only be perpetuating the beliefs that are socialized into us since birth and I don’t want to do that because look what it did to me. I’m miserable and confused in my body. A body that’s healthy and normal.

       

[–]Bobmuffins 2 points 4 hours ago

Then, as I suggested, talk to a therapist about it.

Though, personally, I’d suggest you say “fuck you” to any and all TERFs and ignore what they say, then do what you want after that.

 

[–]RocketQMTF 3 points 3 hours ago

this affirms the radfem ideaolgy of the patriarchy making me hate my body.

Look.. i’m sorry.. but that is a crock of shit. There are no external forces making you hate your own body.

People who transition are not some weak willed people who have given in to the external forces of the evil patriarchy and have decided to assimilate and become part of the patriarchy themselves.

Stay off Tumblr, your life will be a million times more simple.

 

[–]transgender_accountFTM androgyne, stealth mode est. 2010 3 points 5 hours ago

It would benefit you best if you could use your introspection to discern whether your problem is

The inherent physical state of your body (which was my impression from your original post, but may not be the case)- or

External social factors like the perception that you are somehow limited by being female.

If your problem is that you don’t want a feminine role, I would highly advise against taking any steps in physical transition. However, if you are suffering from personal dysphoria regarding your sexual characteristics, these can indeed be fixed.

I understand that it can be hard to make the distinction, but please understand that, even if you personally are not trans, that doesn’t mean that being trans isn’t real or that it’s a social problem for everyone else.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 5 hours ago

Yeah it is my sexual characteristics but what I’m saying is maybe with determination and rationalization I can lose these feelings.

[–]TurtleTape24/FTM/pre-stuff 3 points 4 hours ago

People have tried that for hundreds of years; it’s the basis of those harmful ex gay camps and therapies. It isn’t a healthy way to deal with these feelings.

       [–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 4 hours ago

But even within butch lesbian communities there is a level of discomfort with their bodies. Not all but some. Some butches don’t like being touch some like to be called hy and hym. The butches that don’t like being touched by their partner have a body dysphoria to a certain level. They feel it will “unbutch” them but why would it? This is probably because all their life they identified and related more to males and as a result developed a connection between masculinity and males. As a result they feel their female biology does not allow them a true and constant expression of “butchness” or masculinity. To be penetrated or have their breasts fondled means to give up their identity as butch but only because the patriarchal ideas of masculinity led them those feelings. I feel this way too so therefore I should stop feeling shame and embrace my body which is female but that is all. It is just biology and shouldn’t conflict with my expression of self.

[–]TurtleTape24/FTM/pre-stuff 3 points 4 hours ago*

Where are your sources for this? Butch lesbian people do not have the same desires you do. You’ve mentioned disliking your chest and your genitals, you’ve mentioned wanting a beard. These are typically not things that butch women feel.

You do not have to love your body. You need to forget and ignore what you’ve seen written from radfems. Practically everything you’ve said just screams and yells and insists that you’re transgender, and you’re looking towards these unhealthy ideologies to try to push your feelings away. Sure, plenty of transgender people push away their feelings…then they end up killing themselves or transitioning very late in life, neither of which are desirable.

Spend some time in healthy transgender communities. Visit /r/ftm and spend some time here. There is nothing wrong with being transgender. It isn’t “giving into the patriarchy”; it’s being true to who we are.

I want to be penetrated, but that doesn’t mean I’m not a man. Some gay men want to be penetrated, that does not make them less of a man. Many trans men enjoy breast stimulation, as well, that doesn’t make them less of a man.

This isn’t patriarchy. This is us knowing we would be happier as men. Even in a vacuum where no gender roles existed, I would prefer to be a man. Give up this obsession with patriarchy and radfems and biology and accept how you feel.

My biology gave me a male brain, so should I ignore that because my body says otherwise?

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

Stone butch are a category of butches who don’t like receiving during sex.

 

[–]Ebomb1flare 1 point 5 hours ago

The human brain can rationalize almost anything. Just b/c it’s possible doesn’t mean it’s healthy.

[–]erika_fayeMtF 4 points 5 hours ago

I’m sorry but it sounds like you’re trying to rationalize away being trans. Even if I lived alone on a deserted island I’d still want a female body.

[–]transaccount11 2 points 4 hours ago

If being trans were about conflating gender roles and physical sex, I wouldn’t be trans. I actually fit way better into the usual female gender roles than the male ones (I’m like Rupaul except less transphobic), but ultimately a female body was just not right for me. The TERF’s theories do not account for effeminate gay trans men like me and many others.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 4 hours ago

Yeah I do realize there was not much explanation on effeminate gay transmen. Their explanation was some deepseated misogyny coupled with a wish to gain male-privilege. This explanation did not suffice for me but the self-loathing butch did seem true at least for me.

[–]transaccount11 1 point 3 hours ago

I actually feel like I was better off privilege-wise living as a woman. In spite of the male privilege, being a crossdressing non-hetero trans man is not very privileged and just generally frowned upon. Hell, sexual harrassment hasn’t even gone down for me (now I get straight guys when I’m in drag and gay/bi guys when I’m not; SWELL).

It sounds like you have less of a problem with internalized misogyny than one with internalized transphobia. You don’t seem to loathe your butchness at all, but you do seem to loathe your transness.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 3 points 3 hours ago

I don’t loathe transness its just that I don’t know whether transness atlesst for me is a result of self-loathing or a medical issue. Whether or not I think I’ve gotten enough trans people responses who feel better with their transition than being in their natural bodies. I will give being in my body a shot at least for the first year of college and if it doesn’t work out than fuck everyone else I will remove the sources of my discomfort whether or not it is because of patriarchy or not.

 

[–]RevengeOfSalmacis28 mtf, hormones since 2/1 1 point an hour ago

If you’re just out of high school/in your first year of college, be aware: you will be dealing with ideology and philosophy for a very long time. You will also be dealing with your body for a very long time. Your understanding of ideology may change and deepen, and if you can avoid becoming indoctrinated by inflexible dogmas, you may achieve considerable sophistication and wisdom. Your relationship to your body will be more complicated.

For what it’s worth, lots of trans people loathe themselves. I’m mtf; I spent a lot of time detesting myself for being male, and it’s only starting to lift now that my body becomes gradually more like what my internal map-of-myself expects. When I lift my hand to my face, I expect smooth skin, not stubble, and now that my there’s less of it–now that it’s starting to thin out a bit with laser–I feel less horror, less alienation. Not recognizing yourself in your body is going to bring some serious self-loathing.

I don’t know if anything’s purely “a medical issue” or is in some way tainted by societal norms, and I can’t give you any answers, but I can ask you a question. Pardon me if the words aren’t quite correct; I’m a novelist, not a critical theorist, and I doubt I’ve read as much radical feminism as you are:

It seems to me like you sincerely want to help end sexist oppression and bring freedom to women. As a person transitioning into a woman who’s pretty scared of the sexist oppression she thinks she’ll encounter–because I have eyes–I think this is great. Assuming what you’re experiencing is dysphoria–and it sounds pretty familiar based on your description of it–do you think you’ll be able to do more to help women as a self-loathing butch woman who is engaged in this constant struggle with yourself? Or do you think you’ll be able to do more to help women as a man whose body makes him feel alive in it?

[–]mrhorseass[S] [score hidden] an hour ago

I think I am a self-loathing butch for now. It’ll take a while to remove the extra baggage of dysphoria of course and it may never go away. But to blatantly in the face of the gender binary resist and stay true to myself is a much more powerful message, you could say, than to transition because of a dysphoria brought on by an inflexible gender binary and ones natural non conforming expression. It would be nice to transition but that to me is a quick fix and not attacking the root of the problem.

[–]RevengeOfSalmacis28 mtf, hormones since 2/1 [score hidden] an hour ago

Okay. Fair enough. Staying true to yourself is an important thing. Just stay open to discovering more about who yourself is as you move forward in life, OK? And try not to loathe yourself too much; you seem like a very sincere person working through tough issues, so be willing to forgive yourself and reassess as often as you need to stay honest with yourself.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

Thanx btw.

 

[–]Chel_of_the_seaMTF – Play my evil poke-mod at /r/ragered 2 points 4 hours ago

Isn’t this because we were raised in a society that forced female sex into a feminine role?

No, as evidenced by the fact that trans women exist too (on top of fucktons of neurological evidence).

[–]transgender_accountFTM androgyne, stealth mode est. 2010 4 points 5 hours ago

If believing that “trans does not exist” alleviates the discomfort someone has with their sexual characteristics, I would tell them good for them and to try not to harm others using this belief. However, if it does not help even if you believe it, I would highly recommend considering the possibility that being trans is ‘a thing’, that you might be in that unfortunate situation, and that therapy/hormones/surgery might help the way they have helped many others with similar feelings.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 5 hours ago

Believing trans does not exist alleviates nothing. Instead it feels like a bitter pill I’ve swallowed. If I transition though I believe it will be because of a fight I’ve lost. This is why I feel so conflicted about transitioning. Before I believed it was medical and I had all the symptoms. When it was medical I felt no uneasiness about transitioning because it was treatment!

[–]transgender_accountFTM androgyne, stealth mode est. 2010 4 points 5 hours ago

I’m not you, but it really truly sounds like you’re trans and in denial while using rad-fem ideology to try to rationalize away your medical condition.

I have narcolepsy. I could say “the only reason it’s a problem is because of society’s obsession with being awake at the right times”, not take my pills, and be miserable…or I could take the treatment and get on with life.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 4 hours ago

Ha ha that’s kind of funny (not your narcolepsy but the society part). Your right I am trying to rationalize it away because if I could then I believe I would be truly free. Transitioning will never make one the opposite sex so even after transition dysphoria still persists, though not as stongly. But if I could rationalize it and be comfortable in my body the way it is then that would be sweet and liberating.

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay 1 point 4 hours ago

Transitioning will never make one the opposite sex

Yeah, see most of us would say that we’ve always been the gender we identify with. And the whole point of transitioning is to bring our bodies into alignment with that. We’re as real as anyone else, and to suggest otherwise is simply insulting. Just because a person was born with a body/mind gender difference doesn’t make their gender any less real.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 4 hours ago

Well I know. I meant specifically sex not gender. A man knows he’s a woman but unfortunately his sex does not align with his gender experience. This will result in dysphoria and because medical procedures are not perfect dysphoria may still persist even after transition.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 4 hours ago

I have a question, though,. You say you knew your gender forever but in my opinion gender is irrelevant because cis people express themselves in such a variety of ways that to say you feel like a woman could mean you are extremely feminine or extremely butch. Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to say you did not fit into your body regardless of your gender experience.

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay 2 points 3 hours ago

I didn’t fit the social expectation people had of me based on my body type. And I wanted to have a more masculine body, because it felt right to me. It’s not that I knew forever, because I was lucky enough to grow up in an environment that didn’t enforce any gender roles. It was something I realized about myself as I grew up and learned what I preferred. I can remember identifying with gay men from around 10 or 12 years old, and trying to explain to my mom why it was important to support gay rights, because I felt like these people were like me. I actually didn’t know trans was a thing until much later, and once I did and then after I saw people who had actually transitioned and what was medically possible, I wanted that. If they could do it, why not me?

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

Why does masculine have to be male though? Why not be a muscular female? I also realize that once sexual preference comes into play it can complicate things heavily. You like men but it may be hard to date men who probably don’t assume you are a male identified person.

[–]YoungFolks/r/TransCommunity – for sharing and ranting and chatting 1 point 3 hours ago

Because male and female aren’t the same things. Male bodies and female bodies aren’t the same. I was a fairly muscular female for a while, and I didn’t like it. Even being the fittest i’d ever been in my life, I was no where near as strong or as ripped as I should have been. I still looked at men’s bodies with envy and jealousy, because try as I might, i’d never have that. I still had curves, I still had softness, I still had a high voice and all of this bothered me.

Even being the most masculine woman I could be, I wasn’t happy. Being a guy makes me so much happier. I still hate my body, because I’m not on T yet, but just knowing that I’m a dude and I’m going to transition makes me feel better.

 

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay [score hidden] an hour ago

Because I’m not female. And yeah, it has been hard finding gay men to date. Not impossible, but hard. That’s one of the things I’m hoping transitioning will help with.

[–]Ebomb1flare 3 points 5 hours ago

Looking at some of your other comments about fighting and losing and whatnot, I have to ask: is this really the hill you want to die on? Can you think of nothing else more important that you would spend your life fighting not to transition? B/c how you’re framing your situation is very much as a moral battle.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 5 hours ago

Yeah I know. The ways radfems portray transition is self-loathing and shame. How can I succumb to that? Right now, I will see if altering my body naturally, which in itself you could say is transitioning, and forming more friendships with butch women will ease my dysphoria. If not then transition is certainly something worth considering no matter if morally i feel there’s something inherently wrong with it.

[–]Ebomb1flare 2 points 4 hours ago

B/c it’s not succumbing? Radfem framing of transition, particularly for female-assigned people, is profoundly anti-human. It completely denies agency and objectifies the transitioning person as a deluded thing to be pitied and saved. It’s offensive to anyone with more than a smidge of self-esteem.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 4 hours ago

Exactly but I actually bought into that portrayal of transitioning. Unfortunately this has confused.me even more and it hurts me to think that I am not trans or that trans itself doesn’t exist but instead I am a self-loather to the max. Suicide comforts me now because I am stuck and all these thoughts are a noise in my head that won’t go away. But even if transgender is self-loathing, if it causes so much distress that one would feel miserable then why not transition? If I feel worser then I will consider transitioning. But now I will consider dealing with the cards I was dealt and learn to love myself.

 

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay [score hidden] an hour ago

It sounds like you might benefit from talking with an LGBT-friendly therapist. If only to help you feel better about yourself, whoever or whatever gender that is. There’s no reason you can’t like yourself, trans or not. Or rather, if you are trans, it should not prevent you from liking yourself, because trans people are awesome people too. And if you just want to be a butch female, then you can still like yourself too, because butch females are awesome too.

 

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay 2 points 4 hours ago

There’s a reason I don’t visit those sites. They’re complete idiots. I suspect some lesbian somewhere felt she “had” to transition due to societal or familial pressure, and is now on a crusade to prevent anyone else from doing the same because that’s all she knows. She obviously isn’t trans, so it wasn’t the right decision for her. That doesn’t mean it isn’t the reality for thousands of other people.

Let me put it this way… I’m sure as hell not a lesbian because I mostly like guys. I’m not straight and my relationships with straight men have always turned out a bit awkward after they got to know me really well, more like roommates than boy/girl relationship. I’m not “butch” because, although I’m male, I enjoy many more traditional “feminine” things such as long hair, flowing garments, the color purple, etc. Yeah, that stuff’s all social. “Butch” is a social construction, not a gender. A “butch” female is the equivalent of a “hyper masculine male”. I don’t fit either of those categories, yet I’m still male. Social role is not gender identity.

How do you feel when you’re in a group of women? Do you identify with them, get along with them, enjoy their company? What about groups of men? Who do you fit in with more socially? That isn’t a determinant, but something to think about. I have a lot more in common with groups of men than I do groups of women. Most lesbians are (obviously) going to enjoy female company. I feel out of place among women, because I’m not one of them.

[–]RocketQMTF 1 point 4 hours ago

Why do you care about everything or even anything a radfem has to say about transgender people?? They have literally no idea what it’s like to be transgender and are just spouting bullshit.

Whenever you see a group with “radical” in front of their name, it should be a mental red flag for you. Radical groups are moronic.

 

[–]erika_fayeMtF 2 points 5 hours ago

Yeah radical anything means dogma and ignorance. Trans is a real thing. It’s medically documented and we know how to treat it. It is NOT a choice and it’s not a social construct and something you choose to be. Whatever blogs you were reading, just stahp.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 5 hours ago

I know it is not a choice. I suffer from body dysphoria. My problem is where this body dysphoria actually stems from and why. The answer to these questions determine for me if transitioning is something that is okay or not okay. Even if I suffer from dysphoria I’m starting to feel I cannot reconcile my dysphoria and my intellectual beliefs on the reasons for transitioning. If body dysphoria comes from society than I will have to fight if it is medical then I would be on my way to the hospital to transition as soon as possible. Know what I mean?

 

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay 1 point 4 hours ago

Well, close your eyes and pretend you’re on a deserted island with nobody but the wind, sand, waves, and yourself. How do you feel about your body?

 

[–]TurtleTape24/FTM/pre-stuff 2 points 5 hours ago

Trans is different from butch, and dysphoria comes in all shapes and sizes. Ignore the whole radfem ideology, it’s toxic and helps no one. Radfems and TERFs are horrible and you should not listen to them at all.

Being butch is not the same as having dysphoria. Cis women can be butch. They can dress and act in a masculine fashion, but that is completely and totally different from being uncomfortable in their skin.

If you have intense feelings of body dysphoria, then you are not simply butch.

[–]nancysbw41 yo trans woman, 9 mo HRT 2 points 5 hours ago

It certainly is medical in origin, though we may not know all the details and why.

But let me ask you this: you seem pretty damned convinced that you’re trans, but you have this little doubt. And you want that last little doubt to go away.

Why not turn it around? Why not try to prove to yourself that there is no chance that trans people exist? Try to make that doubt go away…become positive you’re doing the right thing by not transitioning.

The problem is this. There is no certainty. Being butch is different from being trans. You certainly sound like you’re trans and in denial, or at least afraid of taking the next step. And now you want to know whether body dysphoria could be eliminated by eliminating all notions that women have breasts, that men have penises…if we could completely degender bodies…would people still feel body dysphoria?

Probably yes, people still will, but we can never truly answer that, because none of us will ever live in that society. To suggest that this means people shouldn’t transition is a position not worth debating.

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 5 hours ago

Well this is a response that understands where I’m coming from. My problem is the little doubt I have about the validity about the trans diagnosis. It is like a thorn in my foot. The thing is that society makes us feel that penises and vaginas mean something more than what they actually are. This leads to body dysphoria and the feeling that we do not belong in our bodies. I’m not denying the sincerity or severity of these problems but if there were a change in society and our minds and the genders were truly equal in society then would my body dysphoria not have existed? If the female body didn’t communicate femininity and the male body masculinity then our bodies probably wouldn’t feel wrong, maybe?

  [–]nancysbw41 yo trans woman, 9 mo HRT 3 points 4 hours ago

It is at least possible, but here’s the thing. The AMA and APA have become convinced it’s a medical thing. They have become convinced of this not because they were inherently receptive to this, but because of decades of patients demonstrating that everything except transition was an unmitigated disaster.

There are plenty of papers coming out now which certainly show that it’s medical…we can talk about hormone receptor levels and sizes of chunks of brain, and no, these don’t prove anything beyond doubt, but it’s hard to believe this doesn’t have a medical cause that has to do with hormones, hormone receptors, and brain development.

At the very least, our brains seem to run better on the right hormones, and that’s huge. I didn’t realize how much of my disphoria was biochemical, but being on HRT…well, let’s say I’m fine without SRS (though I may change my mind later), but try to take away my estradiol, and…..

So maybe….yes, maybe. But why fight something that makes a persecuted minority’s life better? Why listen to hate groups? And I understand that you might say, “oh, I support other people doing it, but it’s morally wrong for me”. That’s ok, but it may mean more. It often speaks to internalized transphobia.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 2 points 4 hours ago

I’m scared and bitter about my future. I do not want to invalidate anyone’s experience especially if transitioning is the only thing that can bring them peace. I will just try to go the unconventional way in dealing with my body dysphoria. It may or may not end up badly.

 [–]RocketQMTF 1 point 3 hours ago

Why would you do that to yourself? What are you trying to prove?

    

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

Nothing its just that I turned trans into a moral issue unintentionally , though. I’m not religious or anything. I have very accepting parents and live in a lgbt friendly school.

 

[–]RocketQMTF 1 point 3 hours ago

Well it’s not a moral issue. It’s a medical issue that is relatively easy to fix. And you seem like you’re in a situation where you would get a decent amount of support. So stop beating yourself up about the imaginary moral issue, go find a therapist who specialises in gender issues and take your first step on the path to a happier life.

 

[–]RhiDontMind 2 points 4 hours ago

Why even think of it in terms of transition then?

Testosterone is available to you through medical science and it will give you body hair, a deeper voice, masculine musculature and fat distribution among other things. If these are things you want, why not go for them? If you are uncomfortable with your breasts, look at top surgery. Don’t worry about what other people say. It’s your body, you can change it. Would you consult rad fems before losing weight or gaining weight? Dyeing your hair?

     

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

That’s actually a pretty interesting way of looking at it. To believe taking testosterone is not transitioning because it assumes only men have muscles and body hair. These characteristics can be seen as just characteristics not necessarily male but traits that I consider appealing. I was considering radfem ideology because it said self-loathing was the premise for transitioning and I don’t want to be a self-loather. Everyone will tell you loving your self for who you are is the first step to happiness and peace. This is why I am looking at trans issues in the same category as general acceptance issues.

      

[–]RhiDontMind 1 point 3 hours ago

I still believe their ideology is bullshit. I never hated myself or body prior to transitioning and I certainly don’t now. Many trans men and women I know don’t have issues with self loathing.

They say this because the concept of brain dimorphism between the sexes goes against their ideology. And this is despite growing scientific evidence not only supporting it but supporting why trans people feel the way they do.

          

[–]Icybl 1 point 4 hours ago

You have intense feelings of body dysphoria. You already work to visually hide the feminine aspects of your body – they cause you shame and communicate something about you to others that clashes with who you are inside.

Medical procedures exist to change what your body communicates about who you are to other people. You can remove the curves, put shadow on the face and sharpen its lines, you can project a deeper stronger voice, you can be accepted in an instant visual glance in someone else’s mind as being a man with all the things that the idea of “man” carries with it. It sounds like those ideas fit who you are a lot better than the ideas associated with “woman” – whether those ideas are “right” or “wrong”, they still exist in the minds of everyone who isn’t a TERF or a gender abolitionist.

Why wouldn’t you take advantage of medicine to make your body fit your personality? It’s not right or wrong, it’s a choice. You have the choice to lose the things about your body you hate and gain the things you want.

The secret to life is that you don’t need other people’s approval or moral agreement to do what you want with it. Live the person you are, not the hypothetical person TERFs construct for you to conform to.

I hope you are able to drop the toxic false moral questions about transition and just pay attention to your feelings and your body and do what is right for YOU.

    

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 4 hours ago

But then isn’t transitioning about making people see you as you because others refuse to or are to ignorant to. Isn’t this molding yourself to others expectations? Why can’t I be seen as masculine no matter my biology? Why do people make assumptions about the way I am before they get to know me? Why should my appearance be the only way to communicate my personality to others? If I continue to present myself as masculine while in a female body I will be the dictator of my life. I could help other gender nonconformists see that biology is not their final destiny and that one’s self transcends that. Body dysphoria is a result of the assumptions of ignorant people. Its because a female loses her masculinity when she has breasts or a high voice. Being female is just biology “she” is just an indicator of one’s biology. It should not hurt me because I am female. The pronoun she she should not negate my experience and feeling of masculinity. But unfortunately it does and very strongly. I dread having others see my breast or have a partner touch me like the woman I am. I hate having assumptions being made about me l and when I do express any sort of femininity than people think its because I’m a girl. They negate my experience and are affirmed that I am female and feminine. I have many sides to myself but deep down I identify as “butch” or masculine. My body though is female how can breasts and curves be masculine. If I have a partner I don’t want to be made love to like woman but I am one!

 

[–]amadeoamanteFTM / paladin / 70% gay 1 point 4 hours ago

You don’t sound like one to me.

           

[–]RocketQMTF 1 point 4 hours ago

You’re way over thinking this. You are transgender. Being transgender is treated with transition. Nothing else works in the long term. One day you’re going to have to accept this, or commit to a life without ever feeling truly happy in your own body.

My body dysphoria is not a social construct. I didn’t like my body. I didn’t like what testosterone was doing to it. I hated having a male sex drive. Ever since I started taking HRT my dysphoria has decreased 10 fold. I feel SO much better and I haven’t even presented publicly as a woman.

           

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

Yeah I know one thing that bothers me is being with a partner. I want a girlfriend who is attracted to me for how I feel which is masculine. I don’t want them to be attracted to my breasts amd vagina but to my more characteristic male-like feature. I want the freedom to have my identity with it being challenged by my biology. I do not want a lesbian to like me for being a woman but for being masculine and because of this like my male characteristics. This seems impossible though because the only women who would like me would be lesbians and lesbians like female biology. I cannot be in a relationship and be truly intimate because my sex prevents me from allowing intimacy. This exacerbates my dysphoria and further intensifies my suicidal ideation.

 

[–]RocketQMTF 1 point 3 hours ago

Plenty of transmen have relationships with straight women. Women who will love you for your masculine features.

Please don’t kill yourself. If you’re considering it that much then you really have nothing to lose by at least trying to transition and seeing if that makes you happy.

       

[–]Icybl 1 point 3 hours ago

I’m a big believer in fuck logic and clever thinking, look at how you feel.

You seem to feel two conflicting emotions. Distress or dysphoria caused by the image and physical parameters of your body, and guilt for messing with your default biology and being seen to buy into socialized ideas of gender rather than resisting them.

So one emotion is in response to an amorphous feeling caused automatically by your image, another is caused by a response to an intellectual moral position.

An intellectual moral position can be negotiated. An automated emotional response to a physical aspect of your being cannot.

You can transition and still resist socialized aspects of gender. You can still agree with the idea that women are not automatically one thing based on being born with a vulva. What you do not need to do is suffer with dysphoria your entire life in order to support that position.

Let go of your arguments and listen to your feelings. It will not necessarily make you popular with TERFs, but it will make you happier with your day to day experience of the one and only life you have to live.

I mean, be a martyr to a cause that is based on ideas mainly created by women who do not feel dysphoria about their bodies if you like, but it’s a masochistic way to live. Be good to yourself. Be true to your experience, not to a very recent intellectual and political movement.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 3 hours ago

Wow, that’s very well written and accurate. I know what you mean and eventually one gets tired of being uncomfortable. I do want comfort regardless of my intellectual moral stance so if I find life in my body to still be terrible I will look into a medical fix. Thank you for your response. These words truly ease my mind.

 

[–]Three-colours“Oh, you’re one of those.” 1 point 2 hours ago

My body is my main source of distress. Being called female or she does not bother me too much but my real struggle right now is my body.

Here’s a thought experiment you might like to try.

Would your body cause you distress if you were alone on a desert island?

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] [score hidden] an hour ago

Well yeah but only because I now know what a male body is like. I don’t like breasts for practical reasons. But if I were on an isolated island for my whole life, why would I hate my body; the way i would express myself would match my body. This is because outside of roles if i were on an isolated place i would develop in me that what i feel matches my body since there is nothing else to compare it to such as male or female. I don’t care much for pronouns unless they are used to portray me in a way i do not feel. Or they are used to invalidate my gender experience.

 

[–]Ebomb1flare 1 point 5 hours ago

Are you even butch? TERFs themselves can’t agree on what butch is.

 

[–]mrhorseass[S] 1 point 5 hours ago

I assuming butch means feeling and acting on the more traditionally masculine side. I guess that means I would be considered butch.

 

[–]Ebomb1flare 2 points 5 hours ago*

Radscum have a handful of highly specific “explanations” for manifestations of dysphoria in female-assigned people. These explanations fail to account for the vast majority of experiences among female-assigned people who transition. “Self-hating butch” is one of those explanations, but (1) they can’t even define butch consistently, and (2) I notice you don’t refer to yourself as butch in the OP, only reference it in the title in comparison to trans. Just being culturally masculine doesn’t mean you are or have to consider yourself butch.

[sic- from reddit- GM]

24 Responses to “There is no pressure to transition…There is no pressure to transition…There is no pressure to transition…”

  1. elfkat Says:

    Butch and trans are not the same. I’m butch but now that I’ve been in menopause I’m as comfortable in this body as I’ve ever been. I have never wanted to be a man or have sex with them. That in my opinion would be disgusting.


  2. Eurgh, I stopped reading after awhile.

    “TERF’s are evil because we say so”

    I admit I didn’t read the whole thing because I’m a little busy at the moment and not too concerned with the lies they want to perpetuate to justify things to themselves. At any point in that did they actually explain why we’re wrong/evil/demons/hateful?

    Even if you were to side glance this whole thing, what do “TERF’s” gain from “denying” them rights?
    The “TERF” understanding that gender isn’t real benefits us all. You don’t have to be He-Man or Cinderella. You don’t have to be a house wife or business man. We all win when gender is abolished. How is gender a good thing? Because it explains the way that trans feel? Couldn’t you say the same thing for racism and homophobia? It explains how homophobes and racists see the world. Don’t invalidate their identities as racists and homophobes!!11

    On the other hand, what do they gain by insisting brain sex is a thing?

    The MtT gets their masturbatory fantasies fulfilled and the pharmaceutical companies get their cut, as well as the psychologists/psychiatrists, doctors, endocrinologists, lawyers (to implement new “friendly” laws to supersede reality) and the list goes on.

    Yet, they manage to stay immune to the dangers. They’re not getting demonised for not having sex with pretendbians, they’re less likely to be feel discomfort in the bathrooms from the womanly penis. They’re not having dudes come up and steal titles or winnings from them. (Best girl BMX-er ever?)

    It’s kind of like climate change denial-ism. Scientists are adamant that hey…the planet is warming. They may get research dollars out of this, but at any rate, stopping/minimizing climate change is for the benefit of all. We only have one planet.

    On the other hand, the Fossil fuel industry needs to keep the planet reliant on petrochemicals to make money. They are immune to the dangers because they’re usually rich, old men that die soon and no longer fucking care about the effects 100 years from now as long as they get their money.

    Also, the OP posted in the gendercritical subreddit:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/27whyg/what_is_the_radical_feminists_opinionbelief_on/

    • Ben X Says:

      Eventually they bring out the canard that Radfems must have transitioned and changed their minds because they’re not actually trans. I read the whole damn thing to the end… the consensus was “stop trying to rationalize away your medical condition,” except for the OP, who stayed pretty lucid! She’s going to wait through her whole first year of college before making her “body fit [her] personality,” as one commenter put it.

    • BadDyke Says:

      “On the other hand, what do they gain by insisting brain sex is a thing?”

      YES, nice way to look at it (rather than getting embroiled in the science of brain sex debate……….)!

      Trans get what THEY want (affirmation of the reality/naturalness/legitimacy of their ‘identity’).
      Men in general get what THEY want (just another confirmation that their position in the world is right and natural given their blue boy brains!).
      And what do women get? Another kick in the teeth, stop COMPLAINING laydees, just learn to live with your pink girly brain, and you’ll be MUCH happier.

  3. BadDyke Says:

    It’s JUST like religious dogma. Keep pounding away, don’t allow ANY dissent, brain sex is true, your brain will work better on T, TERFs are evil…………………Slap HARD when they get it wrong, and after enough slaps they will STOP thinking and learn to parrot the trans line with the best of them! O, except for a few ‘rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty’ where SOME questioning is allowed (like exactly HOW evil TERFs are and whether we were born that way or not……………).

    And just VERY sad, the way that over and over, surgery and medicine is cited as THE solution to your dysphoria, the one true CURE.

    It’s just SEEING it all in one exchange, the relentless nature of it! Makes me very very sad for those who are being indoctrinated.


  4. “I’m miserable and confused in my body. A body that’s healthy and normal.”

    Is there any female who hasn’t felt some body dysphoria at some time in her life? If women felt secure in their bodies, then the fashion industry, cosmetic companies, and plastic surgeons would go out of business. There is no money to be made in women not feeling good about their bodies. Why are most plastic surgery patients female? Why are teenage girls getting Botox injections and asking their parents for breast augmentation?

    It’s no accident that hyper-femininity and FTM transitioning exploded about the same time. Girls who don’t want to be on the cover of Teen Vogue think that this must mean they are trans. I’ve always argued that they are just the flip side of the same coin in that both are largely fueled by the decline of second wave feminism, internalized misogyny, and neoliberal politics.

    For any woman to truly appreciate and accept her body is a revolutionary act in and of itself.


  5. This young woman is asking some very good questions and touches on subjects that no one wants to address.

    I hope she never stops thinking, dreaming, and questioning every thing she sees. She sounds like an intelligent young woman.

    “But then isn’t transitioning about making people see you as you because others refuse to or are to ignorant to. Isn’t this molding yourself to others expectations? (*true) Why can’t I be seen as masculine no matter my biology? Why do people make assumptions about the way I am before they get to know me? Why should my appearance be the only way to communicate my personality to others? (*transitioning just reinforces traditional sex roles – boys look and act one way and girls look and act another way) If I continue to present myself as masculine while in a female body I will be the dictator of my life. I could help other gender nonconformists see that biology is not their final destiny and that one’s self transcends that. Body dysphoria is a result of the assumptions of ignorant people. Its because a female loses her masculinity when she has breasts or a high voice. Being female is just biology “she” is just an indicator of one’s biology. It should not hurt me because I am female. The pronoun she she should not negate my experience and feeling of masculinity. But unfortunately it does and very strongly.”

    Trans activists conveniently ignore the botched “top surgery” and all the side effects of surgery and testosterone.

    https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/if-the-nipple-falls-off-just-throw-it-in-the-garbage-when-ftm-top-surgery-goes-wrong/

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/belgian-man-dies-by-euthanasia-after-failed-sex-change-operation-8851872.html

    Even after the euthanasia of Nancy/Nathan Verlhest, it was business as usual. Apparently, nothing can slow down or force people to rethink “transitioning”.

    Finally, “transitioning” cloaks the reality of what is being done to healthy reproductive systems and female anatomy.

  6. LC West Says:

    Most affirmative thing I can do: keep showing up butch. Makes me happy, and that’s the thing.

  7. jdmarsh89 Says:

    Body dysphoria is a delusion. There is nothing wrong with your perfect, human body. What’s wrong is our culture. As an example, POC certainly understand that being white is more convenient, but you don’t see them going to doctors to try to be trans-racial. They know their bodies are fine; It’s society at large that’s fucked. If the loose definition of transgender is a person disgusted and inconvenienced and hindered by their body and the labels they end up with because of their body, then most women would be considered transgender. Women are socially conditioned to hate their bodies in such a socially acceptable way that it’s a perpetual motion machine. It will never stop unless people just don’t accept it. Changing your body to fit the rigid binary is not the solution.

    • J. Says:

      I completely agree.

      … but the ‘fucked up’ society is not going to be overturned very soon, and I still have to deal with constant dysphoria.

      Would it really be that unacceptable for me to seek acceptance and relief without giving up the fight?

      Do I really have to ‘suffer through it’ to be a ‘real’ activist?

      • GallusMag Says:

        I suspect your only “dysphoria” is a frustration in acting out your lesbian porn fantasies.

      • Leo Says:

        I’m with Gallus here, but fine. Note this reply is only ‘cos I give people more benefit of the doubt than they actually seem to deserve, though:

        Yes, you should. This isn’t just about you, it affects everyone else and especially women and girls. If you think you have it so bad, what do you think it’s like for women? I hated every inch of my body, what it meant, how hard it often is for women, regardless of what they’re doing, to be judged just for their opinions and ideas, not their appearance. This is a real restriction on women’s freedom and ability to be heard, and it applies regardless of whether they succeed in meeting ‘beauty mandates’ (well, as far as that’s even possible) or not. How many women do you think stay silent, are silenced, because of it? Conform to oppressive femininity, don’t conform, we still suffer for it. Be a perfect sex object and get judged (and treated) as such, don’t comply and don’t count at all, and/or still get judged for failing or refusing to comply. Hardly great options. We don’t get real acceptance or relief regardless of what we do. We know we’re stuck with this society for now, too. And so will every woman and girl in the future be, if no one tries to change it. Every man and boy who doesn’t want to conform to gender roles, too. And because of transactivists, children who don’t conform to gender roles are now at very real risk of being diagnosed as transgender, and put on a path to mutilating their healthy bodies. It doesn’t have to be about being strong enough to cope with it, it can just come down to realising what you’d be doing to others by feeding into all that with your own actions.

        What is the real issue here? Unhappiness with your body, or gender role? You can be male and like stuff considered feminine (try not to treat the oppressive aspects as something to play around with, though…). Of course you can. If you worry about what people will think if you confess to liking pink or w/e, you’re just not going to wind up very happy with yourself regardless. If it’s unhappiness with your body, that really isn’t as uncommon as you think, and can be a symptom more than anything. Fighting (I don’t mean suffering through it, be more proactive about it) it is better. Really. Seek treatment for any depression (even if you don’t think you’re depressed, look into it), practice meditation, go for walks, see if there’s something more active you can do, like a sport, or swimming, so you can focus on using your body, not what it looks like. It helps.

      • farishcunning Says:

        Fare

      • BadDyke Says:

        “Would it really be that unacceptable for me to seek acceptance and relief without giving up the fight?

        Do I really have to ‘suffer through it’ to be a ‘real’ activist?..”

        Suppose this was a question asked by a black person, who decided that their only option was to ‘transition’ to white? Because society is fucked-up and racist and isn’t going to change real soon:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-27841867

        Why is it okay for people to question skin-bleaching, but NOT okay for women to question trans?

  8. morag99 Says:

    “Would it really be that unacceptable for me to seek acceptance and relief without giving up the fight?”

    Yes, J., it’s totally unacceptable.

    Because, what trans-activists do is not passively seek acceptance, but actively demand to be let in. What male transgenderists do is unload their many and varied illnesses onto women. Once you relieve yourselves, it’s women who have the dysphoria. That’s why YOU end up feeling better!

    So, yes, you do indeed have to “suffer through it” on your own. Please stop coming to us with your “seeking.” Thanks.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Lordy, morag99. That hit it.❤

    • jdmarsh89 Says:

      UUGH THANK YOU❤

      I'm sick as hell of all the pestering and nagging and demanding to be let in followed by the hate, vitriol, and threats when they are not. If there ever was a case to be made for the continued existence of their male privilege, it's that very behavior. Womanhood ain't a skin suit you can put on and take off at your convenience. We're not going to just put the lotion in the basket and STFU.


  9. I would like to suggest to Mrhorseass to consider investigating whether you have a hormonally-related intersex condition. Some of them are not physically obvious. Your comments about being estranged from your body are similar to many that I had when I entered puberty: and I have a hormonal condition caused by congenital adrenal hyperplasia. In XX fetuses, CAH produces an overabundance of androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) as well as imbalances of vital electrolytes. If you have CAH (there are milder forms that produce very few physical symptoms of illness) then it is best to get evaluated for possible steroid treatment to help your immune system and your adrenal gland. Just a thought.

  10. 17vinnykid Says:

    I’m soon to get back on T, I’m 27 and stopped T 1 month 1 week into it because of fucking dirt, and shit like this… I’ve been off T now for 3 months… that is three fucking months I could have been further along in transition!:/ I have bad anxiety issues and am a huge worry wart! I also saw my gma almost cry every time I talked to her about transitioning and it broke my heart, but 3 months now.. and things are getting better, I agree that there is NO RUSH! When you feel like doing it, do it! Don’t listen to anyone ANYONE but YOURSELF! I came to the conclusion that I need more therapy and I want T back soon, to me, having repressed and lied about this for 27 years, it makes my life now HELL because now that I’m finally ready to become my true self, I have to see so many ppl I care about hurt tremendously… BUT, I no longer can deal with these jelous thoughts of seeing cis men and wishing I could have their life, I can no longer feel the bad discomfort of some guy treating me like my opinions are not valid cause I look like a female, I can no longer have sex w a woman and not be okay with her pleasing me just cause I don’t relate to my genitals. My boobs dont actually bother me, but they do when I realize people notice them, especially if I’m around a hot girl… I stand like a goofy hunchback. Bottom line Is were all trans! We know it we live it, and we don’t need some medical explanation for it!

    • Mortadella Says:

      *crickets*

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Needs! More! Exclamation! Points!

    • gchild Says:

      So, your going back on T because
      1. Your jealous of men
      2. You feel like your not taken seriously
      3. Your not having the kind of sexual experiences you want.
      4. Your not able to hold your head high around a “hot girl because you have breasts.

      What happens when taking T changes how you LOOK but not how you feel? What if your STILL not taken seriously? What if “hot girls” STILL make you slouch after T (and/or top surgery)? What if you STILL have anxiety about sex?

      What then?

  11. Peachyoghurt Says:

    Thats what cults do, they don’t allow a different opinion. It’s their way or the high way.
    I just had a converstation on a friends wall about transgender. My friend is a M2T himself and only said that children nowadays rush into transgender to fast.
    Many M2T jumped on him and were very rude from the start.
    Not one of them seemed to be reasonable.
    It doesn’t matter what you say, you’re always wrong.


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