Insurers struggle to justify the sex discrimination of legally mandated “transgender care” while surgical providers continue to decline

October 30, 2014

surgery

 

Less than 50 physicians worldwide are willing to provide transgender surgical “sex reassignment” or “sex change” procedures, and as the few existing practitioners retire, no one is replacing them.  Modern cosmetic and reconstructive surgeons at large are opting not to do these procedures, even when they are state mandated and funded.

Now, insurers are struggling to fulfill state mandates covering transgender surgical procedures for men that are excluded for women based on sex discrimination. Transgender state medical mandates pushed by lobbyists insist that procedures such as breast implants and “face lifts” are medically necessary for men who wish to look more like women, while denying coverage for those same procedures to actual women. Transgender advocates have successfully lobbied for such government provided “care” on the grounds that without such procedures men may become depressed or abuse alcohol or other substances, and that such men have a state-protected right to avoid being mocked or socially ostracized for their appearance. Males must declare a “transgender identity” to receive coverage.

From the Boston Herald:

 

Insurers unsure on transgender care

Meanwhile patients unable to find docs for procedures

Thursday, October 30, 2014

Marie Szaniszlo

 

 Four months after the state Division of Insurance put health plans on notice that denying medically necessary treatment to transgender people is prohibited sex discrimination, insurers are still grappling with what constitutes medical necessity, and patients are struggling to find doctors who’ll treat them.

In a state world-renowned for its medical talent, no Massachusetts physician performs genital gender reassignment surgery, said Elizabeth M. Murphy of the Massachusetts Association of Health Plans.

“We were concerned people were having to go all over the country for this surgery,” Dr. Joel Rubenstein of Harvard Pilgrim Health Care said yesterday at a Division of Insurance informational session. “We’re hopeful somebody would step up to put together the surgical piece so it could all be in one place.”

Under state law, health plans are required to develop evidence-based medical necessity guidelines for such procedures.

“We are determined to … not exclude treatment for this condition,” Rubenstein said.

On the other hand, he said, Harvard Pilgrim does not want to approve procedures such as facial feminization for transgender people if those procedures would be considered merely cosmetic for other people.

“If we cover them for transgender patients, we would be being reverse-discriminatory,” said Dr. Robert Nierman, medical director at Tufts Health Plan.

But Ruben Hopwood of Fenway Health said facial feminization is not about wanting a “cuter nose.” A transgender person’s appearance is more likely to be the difference between getting a job or not getting one, and walking down the street unafraid or being attacked, Hopwood said.

Getting the proper treatment also can save money that might otherwise be spent on treatment for alcohol or substance abuse or depression, said Pam Klein, a nurse at Boston Health Care for the Homeless.

 

[bolding by me-GM]

138 Responses to “Insurers struggle to justify the sex discrimination of legally mandated “transgender care” while surgical providers continue to decline”

  1. Jen Says:

    What about ugly women who can’t get a job? What about women with facial deformities? I’m glad physicians are opting not to do these procedures.

    These perverts only want to look like beautiful women. They don’t even consider unattractive women human.

    • Loup-loup garou Says:

      They should think twice about that — remember the dental assistant in Iowa who got fired for being “too attractive”? The Supreme Court ruled in favor of her employer.

      • kesher Says:

        She’s an outlier. It’s certainly a case of “be careful what you wish for”, but attractive people absolutely earn more money in the workforce.

    • gg Says:

      And how about people with missing or crooked teeth who can’t get a job? Unemployment among people with bad teeth is far more well-documented than unemployment among MtTs with strong jawlines.

      • Jen Says:

        Women who lose massive amounts of weight can’t even get cosmetic surgery to remove excess skin covered by insurance. That’s not even just cosmetic, it’s a painful, life-limiting condition.

      • AreUSayingWhatUThink Says:

        Let us ask ourselves, why did those women get fat in the first place? Hmm…..

      • Old Music Says:

        “Let us ask ourselves, why did those women get fat in the first place? Hmm…..”

        Because some people have genetic variations that mess up their metabolisms? Because injury to parts of the brain (for example due to childhood cancers) that control appetite can cause obesity? Because, in the global north, we live in a toxic food culture? Because healthy food is more expensive and time-consuming to prepare than unhealthy food? Because the poor areas of some big US cities are now considered ‘food deserts’ because there is nowhere to buy healthy fresh food? Because sugar is toxic and addictive, but it’s put is so-called ‘healthy’ fat-free food?

        Why is this even relevant? Smokers get cancer therapy, drinkers get treatment for liver disease, people who take part in extreme sports get their injuries treated, and those individuals, who arguably have much more control over their conditions, don’t get half the abuse and victim-blaming vitriol that obese people do.

      • Miep Says:

        “Let us ask ourselves, why did those women get fat in the first place? Hmm…..”

        Also weight gain is a common response to sexual abuse, and it’s impossible to lose weight in a controlled, healthy manner, without exercise, and unless you have a private place to exercise, you risk getting harassed by men, which is in turn a trigger for the sexually abused. So around and around it goes.

        I think for starters a woman has to learn to be selfish about it, to make her weight not be about anybody else. Then she can decide what she wants to do, which may involve staying the same weight but doing bodywork for reasons specific to health aspects.

        But she will still be discriminated against.

      • Jen Says:

        Are you saying hypothyroid women are to blame for their weight? How about Bipolar women who were told to take lithium or depressed women told to take Nardil? You understand all these things can cause massive weight gain in spite of low caloric consumption, right?

      • GallusMag Says:

        I didn’t read AreYouSaying’s comment as implying women are to “blame” for their weight, or as making a “fat shaming” comment. In fact, I assume the opposite.

      • Jen Says:

        Oh, oops. Used to mainstream comment sections. Sorry, AreUSaying!

    • pandoracurioser Says:

      actually no, there was a recent study showing that conventionally attractive women were less likely to get funding for their business ventures, not more. The thing to focus on here is the misogyny, which is something ALL women have to deal with. Do you REALLY think that the fact these dudes want to be conventionally attractive women has anything to do with respecting such women as individuals with agency? Or maybe being considered a porn object is just as bad as being ignored?

      Kesher underneath says good looking people make more money: I’d like to see the data on that, considering the most oppressive and powerful people in the world are old ugly white men.

      Women who claim their oppression is more important, because they are fat/thin, more/less “feminine”, more/less fit just contribute to the infighting and keep ourselves where the patriarchy wants us. Let’s stop Othering women and recognize misogyny for what it is.

      • GallusMag Says:

        There really is no “winning” at gender for women.

      • kesher Says:

        Here’s an article on it: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-finds-attractive-people-earn-more/

        There’s also a lot of hard data on how fat people, men and women, but it hits women the hardest, are paid much less and are typically given the worst jobs. Fatness is largely associated with attractiveness.

      • pandoracurioser Says:

        kesher and here is the study about attractive women being given the least funding for their business ventures (though interestly attractive men faired the best which I didn’t remember or expect):

        http://nextshark.com/new-study-attractive-males-have-it-way-easier-when-raising-startup-funding/

        the bottom line is ALL women can be fit and healthy and ALL women feel the pressure to be attractive whether it’s about being not-fat, thin, with a certain nose etc.
        So I still think this falls under misogyny and the fact that women are objectified as fuck toys and decorative objects and when we don’t fit the standard, for good or bad reasons, we are swept under the carpet so as to not ruin the stereotype. But all women are objectified through this, the invisibilized ones and the ones treated as sex-toys. It’s all the same system.

        And again, about men, excuse me if IDGAF. Especially white men. They are so fucking sloppy and lacking in personal hygiene and I don’t think as a whole they feel any pressure. Just look at the most powerful people on Earth over on the Forbes lists. Are they men? check. Are they white? check. Are they rich from birth? check. Are they old? check. Are they ugly? check. That’s all the evidence I need.

  2. Ella Says:

    I truly can’t express how happy I am that the number of doctors buying into the trans narrative is declining. Not a single procedure trans people want to undergo is medically necessary. The doctors that provide these procedures are just cashing in on an unregulated sector that gains them lifelong patients. The whole thing just leaves a bad tastein your mouth.

  3. Miep Says:

    Insisting people are entitled to things because if they don’t get them they’ll become depressed and/or alcoholic sets a pretty big precedent.

    • Jane Says:

      Yes. It’s right up there with “I’m a hothouse flower who can barely navigate life. Now let me run yours.”

    • Dogtowner Says:

      I find this concept to be totally weird and verging on the psychotic. We don’t provide people with access to education, housing, health care, and food — actual NEEDS — to make sure they don’t get addicted or depressed, but. What does it say about the mental functioning in our society that people’s minds can go through these sorts of contortions while denying many people basic necessities, including the right to live without fear of assault or murder?

      • AreUSayingWhatUThink Says:

        Thank you Dogtowner for spelling it out.

      • Miep Says:

        Dogtowner: while I am aware that some transgender people think these treatments improve their lives, the avidity with which the culture embraces them while simultaneously rejecting real obvious needs such as you speak of, leaves me convinced that the whole thing is essentially punitive, corrective, and conformist.

      • Ed Says:

        In particular what does it say about the left.

      • Jen Says:

        The right to live without fear or murder isn’t exactly a right. It’s certainly not a right I’ve been offered as a woman. It’s always been up to me to lessen my “murderability,” by watching my drinks, being aware of red flags in men’s behavior, staying away from certain areas during certain times, etc. Following these rules isn’t enjoyable for me. If trans women are afraid of being murdered, perhaps they should establish some similar rules to teach each other so as to avoid male violence, since they probably learned as males that walking the streets at night is no big deal?

    • Miss Construed Says:

      “Insisting people are entitled to things because if they don’t get them they’ll become depressed and/or alcoholic sets a pretty big precedent.”

      That is the excuse, all right. It’s a wordier version of a four-year-old threatening a tantrum if you don’t buy him a toy. That is the majority thinking in the “trans community”.

      (Supposedly, I are one, but I have no wish to be associated with that kind of idiocy. Can I be a male TERF? 😀 )

      I was banned from tranny-space for daring to suggest that such logic should have also applied to my normally-gendered high school friend who committed suicide because his girlfriend left him. Obviously, FedGov should pay for sex workers, because broken hearts cause suicide, and nothing heals a broken heart better than a quality BJ. Wish you all could have seen how many pitchforks and torches aimed at that straw man (the argument; the friend was real and the story true) in a couple nanoseconds.

      Because it’s not about preventing people from killing themselves. It’s about trannies not killing themselves, or at least getting free cosmetic surgery, and heck with everyone else.

  4. sallou999 Says:

    Yeah as if real women aren’t mocked for their appearance, or become depressed/abuse substances at perceiving themselves to be ‘not womanly enough’ or ‘ugly’.
    Oh wait, thats actually an epidemic among young women.
    No government can give me a valid reason why trans can be given boobjobs and such for free and I can’t

  5. pandoracurioser Says:

    Wow I didn’t know there were only 50 surgeons in the entire world willing to do SRS. Although there are clearly way more licensed doctors that have no problem administering exogenous hormones, which are also very damaging.
    Of course mandating insurances cover cosmetic operations is ridiculous. And as always reproductive care is not provided to women in most cases.

    • shediogenes Says:

      The writing is on the wall for these surgeons, most of these dudes claiming laydee brain want to keep their precious girlcock rapesticks intact. No point investing time becoming the next SRS surgical expert if numbers of patients are in decline even as numbers of tranz are going up.

      I wonder if Massachusetts’ great reputation for medicine and having no SRS surgeons is no coincidence. Maybe MA has earned such a reputation because doctors and researchers there are more concerned with real problems and real medicine that can improve the lives of more than just a few ppl with a psychiatric disorder.

      • Dogtowner Says:

        I wish Massachusetts’s great reputation had some validity. Does it? What I do know is that it is the most expensive “health” care in the world. I watched a friend in Boston go through the mill because she listened to her numerous doctors — guess what, she’s dead. Maybe that’s simply an individual anecdote, but I have never personally found a link between heatlh care of quality and a high price.

      • shediogenes Says:

        @Dogtowner
        An article quoted in the post said MA was “world-renowned” for its medical practitioners, I really have no idea about its reputation. I tend to be skeptical of medicine in general, all these great reputations are nevertheless reputations of patriarchal institutions “world-renowned” by still more patriarchal institutions.

        Sorry to hear about your friend.

  6. Loup-loup garou Says:

    Oh, so “a transgender person’s appearance is more likely to be the difference between getting a job or not getting one, and walking down the street unafraid or being attacked”?

    Welcome to womanhood, dudes.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Incredible how they have no apparent interest in addressing (and changing!) the social issues that cause such discrimination. Instead, the tacit implication of medically and surgically treating gender-nonconformity by “closeting” or disguising it, is that transgenderism itself is shameful. I wonder what would have become of the Gay Rights movement if lesbians and gays had embraced the closet, with medical and state-sponsored support. It certainly wouldn’t have been a “Pride” movement to say the least.

      • Jane Says:

        For all the complaints that trans, libfems and other sex-pozzers make about “cis men”, they are extremely reluctant to inconvenience them in any way. They want to claim the word “radical” but they are cowardly liberal accomodationists to the core.

      • BadDyke Says:

        Yes, the supposed ‘treatment’ is to hide or fit in better within the existing social structure. Within the hidden assumption that NOT fitting in would cause or maintain debilitating social anxiety/depression/agoraphobia etc. The SAME fit the norm assumptions lie behind the non-consensual surgery for intersex people that intersex organisations fight AGAINST.

        Of course, the ONLY reason why the trans dude might be attacked is not because OF his face/chest, but the fact he has that face and chest and is wearing clothes seen as inappropriate for his sex. Rather than say — don’t wear a dress then dude, instead his sovereign right to wear a dress means we have to pay for boob implants as well……….At least with genital surgery they can TRY to claim that the unwanted versions are thereby non-functional. But given the number not opting for genital surgery, the whole thing is really becoming just a surgical fix for a psychological condition that is increasingly COSMETIC rather than functional.

        Meanwhile back to the women, where the feminist message is LESS surgery, not MORE, and the right for women to be ‘accepted’ as they ARE, not as men want to pretend they are, or pretend they should be, or as men want to sculpt us. Which is of course diametrically opposed (yet again!) to the trans line which wants MORE surgery the better to fit their bodies to their OWN male construct of what women is.

        Finally, this is all only hangs together IF surgeons manage to convince themselves that their male subjects will be better able to pass after they have finished with them (yeah, well surgeons are renowned for their arrogance!), or at least that the ‘patient’ believes they will pass better after surgery.

        I agree Gallus, the whole gay lib was about NOT hiding, whereas the trans thing is about total hiding, fooling even your gynacologist, deep cover! If it wasn’t, we would have men who thought they were women, but wearing whatever they wanted, no surgery, no hormones, beards and hairy legs etc. Except of course if they did that, how are we supposed to KNOW that they are actually women in their heads? The argument only works if you believe in some unbreakable link between supposed inner jenduh, and the need to have breasts and wear sexy clothes.

      • Zemskull Says:

        Hello GallusMag: Thank you for addressing this topic, as I am very interested in it. As I mentioned in another thread, I worked at an employer whose insurance covered transgender cosmetic surgeries completely unrelated to the genitalia procedures (which were also covered). The cosmetic procedures could run into the the six-digit range. This included breast augmentations.

        Meanwhile, a born-woman coworker who’d lost her breasts due to breast cancer could not get reconstruction covered. She also grew facial hair during chemotherapy, as is a common side effect, and its removal was not covered.

        It was rather surreal to see a male-to-female transgender with large breasts working alongside a flat-chested breast cancer survivor, and knowing that company’s insurance policy had a role in that disparity.

      • Jen Says:

        It’s all just superficial, sexist, consumer, pornified, eugenicist, corporate bullshit. The opposite of a social justice movement.

      • Jen Says:

        Oh and zemskull, it’s probably a good thing your coworker didn’t get breast implants. They are psychopathic, and the few women I’ve known who got them became very sick from silicone poisoning (even the saline ones have a silicone shell). If you read about them on PubMed or go scour the forums where women are paying bundles to have them removed (because the FDA says they’re safe, so you must not be removing them for health reasons!), you’ll get an idea of how deleterious they are to the human organism. I get what you’re saying though, about sexism in insurance coverage, but ultimately she may have dodged a bullet. Let the trannies experience silicone poisoning for a few decades and maybe they’ll finally be banned.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Zemskull, are you in the U.S.? Because if so, it’s illegal for insurance companies not to cover breast reconstruction due to breast cancer. Many, many women fought long and hard to make that the case. That woman in your company should sue them until their balls are blue.


  7. Hell, I have PCOS and various other insulin issues. Lovely disease that’s basically turned me both fat and hairy. No way in hell can get treatment for either on my insurance. If I want laser hair removal I have to pay for it out of pocket and it’s not cheap.

    • WordWoman Says:

      Do women ever get depressed over these and other health issues that are not covered? Do “unattractive men” ever want plastic surgery to correct, say, an ugly nose or chin? Do they get depressed and get bullied for their appearance? Do they get passed over for promotions? It seems to me that many people probably get depressed over their appearance and children certainly get bullied for it.

      Job discrimination based on appearance is not uncommon. Women do get fired for getting older in many professions. Should not this discrimination be considered on par with “gender identity” discrimination? Should they be covering plastic surgery for “age identity disorder?” 😉

      Here are a bunch of lawsuits waiting to happen, since having serious health issues is depressing, could cause one to drink. Or a woman is denied birth control coverage and gets pregnant, can she sue because of post-partum depression that could have been avoided. There’s lots of research on pregnancy causing depression.

      The rationale that a condition that could cause depression or bullying should be covered is a recipe for lawsuits. In addition, there usually need to be numerous large-scale studies that demonstrate that this is the case. Are trans bullied more than other groups? Where’s the research?

      Anyone have a condition that’s not covered? A smart lawyer would be strategizing and lining up clients today for the wave of lawsuits to come. Maybe we all should be checking to see if our health plans cover SRS. If so, we are likely being discriminated against. Wonder what it’s worth with our pain and suffering over having to endure it while this other is getting covered.

      Haven’t these doctors, including the ones giving hormones, heard of psychotherapy or psychiatric treatment using medication? If depression is an issue, why is there no hue and cry to treat the depression. And I don’t mean going to a selected therapist who will rubber stamp GID for SRS.

      • Miep Says:

        My health insurance does not cover a mansion in the Hampshires. I am trans-millionaire and I require a suitable place to witness the fall color.

        Off to court with me, lest I die of despair.

    • born free & female Says:

      I would love to see a class action suit against an insurer who’ll pay for men’s hair removal (if they feel female) but won’t pay for women’s.

    • Jen Says:

      I’m transage, so I need a facelift to keep me looking 20, the age I identify as.

      • Zemskull Says:

        Hello Jen: Coincidentally, male-to-female transgenders often receive cosmetic procedures to resemble women younger than their actual chronological ages.

        For example, it’s not uncommon for a 45-year-old born-woman to have some visible neck sagging. However, it’s also common for a 45-year-old male-to-female transgender to opt for cosmetic procedures in order to have a smooth neck similar to a born-woman in her 20s. And, as mentioned, your employer’s health insurance plan may be paying for this.


    • In the UK women with PCOS or similar issues won’t get hair removal – but men claiming to be women will (for free). All part of the £££ package these men get as their delusions are pandered to.

  8. lin Says:

    All that we WINOS (women in need of surgery) gotta do is tell them we’re trans. They don’t need to see our vaginas to do facial or boob surgery. Even if they did, those dang neovags can fool any doctor on Earth!

    • ImNoCissie Says:

      Yes, we can just do what Vern Cox and Christopher “Carmen” Carerra did to Katie Couric – tell them it is RUDE and irrelevant to ask about one’s genitals! Why one EARTH would you want to know what is between mah legs, for goodness sake! All that matter is how we FEEL and we FEEL like we need new boobs and a facelift, to be the women we were always meant to be!

    • Jen Says:

      We can have a meltdown and claim they are being transphobic for asking intrusive questions about our genitalia!

  9. cerulean blue Says:

    How many pre-teen and teenage girls have been sexually harassed by male classmates/adults or led into depression, self injury or worse because their breasts were too big/too small/ simply present? Or because their facial features were considered “ugly”? How many women have been denied jobs and promotions for the same reason? That’s right, pretty much every single female. So why should trans dudes get surgery denied to the group they insist they belongs to?

    • born free & female Says:

      “I am a woman exactly like cis women and should be treated like one in all ways! Uh, except this one!”

      • kesher Says:

        They really hate being held up to the same standards as women. Look at how up in arms the trans brigade gets when someone “misgenders” a trans woman who looks like a dude in a dress. As though masculine women don’t get misgendered and called ugly every damn day.

        I fully expect it to become a “hate crime” to call an ugly trans woman “ugly”. Bad treatment of women is completely normal and accepted. Bad treatment of men is the worst thing to happen to anyone ever.

    • Dorothy Mantooth Says:

      *raises hand*

      I was a late developer. I mean VERY late–I didn’t get my first period until I was fifteen. I was flat-chested until around then, and am still very small-busted; barely a B cup (although after having babies, they’re a little smaller, even. I still buy B cups for my ego, basically, but I know I could fit better into an A). The number of times in my pre-teen – teen years I was outright told by a guy that he wasn’t interested because I “don’t have anything,” (with a pointed look at my chest–one even tapped my chest with a pencil) or that if I actually had a *body* they’d be interested or whatever else… I still, honestly, find it painful and upsetting sometimes, being so small and so not being able to wear many of the clothes I like, or just feeling stunted and abnormal in some way. (I saw a comment recently on another site where somebody was recommending that small women get themselves push-up Miracle Bra-type bras [the kind that push the breasts together as well as up], so they can have cleavage. Mine are too small for that! My slightly wide ribcage means my teeny boobies have to be pushed so far that I appear to have three inches of torso on each side of them, if I push them together.)

      So where’s my paid-by-insurance breast implant surgery? Why was nobody lobbying for my right to decent breasts when I was fifteen/sixteen/seventeen and used to cry regularly over my lack of proper breasts? Where is my free surgery now, after breastfeeding cost me some fullness? I want to wear fifties-style dresses without looking silly!

      Oh, and! A few months after my first baby was born I went to interview for a bartending job. Not being familiar with the place (it was set up by a friend of my mother’s, I’d never been there) but being told it was a casual atmosphere–very quiet and low-key–I wore a nice sweater, a denim skirt that hit about mid-thigh, and a pair of low heels. (Remember, I’d just had a baby a few months before, so I still couldn’t quite fit into a lot of my wardrobe, although I was losing the weight.) I put on light make-up, enough to look polished and professional, and headed out.

      The first thing the (female!) owner said to me was, “I like my girls to dress sexy.” I said, “Okay,” because honestly, that wasn’t a problem. I did have other clothes that fit and looked nice and were more revealing than the mock-turtleneck I was wearing, but again, job interview.

      We chatted for a few more minutes, and I thought I was doing well in terms of answering her questions and expressing interest, showing that I was personable and fun to talk to, and showing that I was responsible and smart.

      Then she totally dismissed me with a crappy “I don’t really need anyone right now but I’ll keep your number on file.” That’s when I realized that she’d barely asked me anything; we hadn’t even left the bar to talk more privately. She hadn’t been especially friendly or nice to me. She’d dismissed me the second she saw my lack of cleavage–she was quite busty, and the new bartender who started work there a couple of weeks later (so much for “I don’t need anybody”) was also very busty. Apparently I was supposed to have come to the interview wearing my five-inch heels and a see-through top.

      I was completely stunned by that. I cried for days (off and on, of course, not solid or anything, lol); it’s hard enough knowing you’re bigger than you’d like to be and trying to lose baby weight, but then when the “and I’m still flat-chested” is added to it…it was horrible. Especially when I knew for a fact that that was the problem (I don’t mean to sound egotistical or anything here, but I’m actually very pretty, and looked very pretty that evening; once I got out of high school I had plenty of men. Again, I know male attention isn’t some sort of trophy or anything. I mention it just to emphasize that the issue was boobs, not anything else). So my lack of breasts cost me a job that I really could have used; where’s my surgery?

      I guess women who lose out on things because of our small busts deserve it for not being proper women who are normal, but men deserve every chance to have cosmetic surgery because not only are their feelings more important than ours, but how are they supposed to tell us they’re better at being women than we are if they can’t pointedly eye our chests while they say it?

      (Sorry this is so long! This subject is still pretty sore for me, even at my age.)

      • Jen Says:

        Dorothy, small breasts are *in* right now with my generation. The ideal body type nowadays (that you see in porn) is basically a prepubescent boy’s body: no hips, no breasts, no body fat. I basically cried for months when my boyfriend told me he was “attracted to model-types” as I have large hips and wear a 30D cup. It’s painful to even type out. There’s no winning, I promise. We’re all in this together.

      • AreUSayingWhatUThink Says:

        It was painful reading your story. I feel for you. *Breasts* yes, it’s a no win situation for anyone. And just think: BREASTS KEEP BABIES ALIVE, i.e., humans have survived for eons BECAUSE OF BREASTS! Breasts sustain life. And now culturally we’re supposed to have the “right” breasts…because….oh forget about breast FUNCTION (beyond sexual pleasure), just don’t even GO THERE. Just feel bad because yours don’t look right. Talk about demeaning and torturing women psychologically…it really is psychological torture, advertising and movies and music videos. Fucking psychological torture.

      • Miep Says:

        Dorothy: I have extremely large breasts, which got me a high school era of extreme embarrassment, and a tendency to attract creeper dudes with mommy issues and a tendency to demand to suck.

        Also back problems at times, especially back when I wore brassieres a lot. I envied women like you so much. It took me decades to stop hating my body.

        Like Gallus said elsewhere in this thread, there is just no way women can win at gender! Whatever we are, it’s never good enough, being a woman becomes a problem all by itself. I hate this culture with every ounce of my furious soul.

      • Dorothy Mantooth Says:

        Thanks so much, ladies. I was worried I’d rambled on and bored everyone. Seriously, I’m so grateful and touched by your responses.

        @Jen, sigh, you’re right, there is no winning. It seems like no matter what we do or how we look, it’s never “right.” And it’s amazing how people, even those we’re intimately involved with, make comments like that without realizing how hurtful they are. I’m so sorry he said that to you.

        I do actually kind of appreciate that they make more clothes now for body types like mine, but I dream of being able to wear retro-50s-style bombshell dresses and bustiers and stuff like that. My husband for several years tried to get me to wear “cuter” things, until I finally tried some on for him and he saw how they made me look like a kid playing dress-up, heh. You would probably look incredible in the things I wish I could wear, dresses from Pin-up Girl or Daddy-Os, that sort of thing. (I mention the names in case you’re ever looking for new things to try, because that stuff is all made especially for women with a build like yours.)

        @AreUSayingWhatUThink: It really is, isn’t it? And you know, breastfeeding actually did help me a bit with my “breast issue.” It was really nice, really comforting/affirming, to know that they at least functioned properly.

        Although as you said, that doesn’t matter in our world. Jen’s comment above and Miep’s below prove it, don’t they? I spent my whole life wishing my breasts were like theirs and being made to feel inferior because they’re not, while they’re made to feel inferior because theirs aren’t like mine. What a sick world that is, when two completely different ends of the spectrum are still both “wrong.”

        @Miep Ugh! The phrase “demand to suck” is just…yuck. Now that is something I’m not at all sorry I missed, and honestly the whole mommy-issue thing is something I’d never really considered. The only woman I’ve ever really been friends with who was very busty (as opposed to average)–aside from my own mother, who kept insisting that I would one day have big breasts too, incidentally; I’m still waiting, mom–was extremely proud of her breasts and would constantly bring them up in conversation: how impressive they were, how much men loved them, how much she loved them, how much fun they were. I will never forget the time she was walking toward me, glanced down, and then said (apropos of absolutely nothing) “Wow, I really do have incredible breasts, don’t I?” I was kind of agog at that one, and had no idea what to say, except, “Sure.” “Sometimes I forget,” she told me in reply. Uh-huh. Of course you do.

        Looking back I realize that she was at least in part motivated by competitiveness with me, but at the time it genuinely hurt. And how sad is that, that our society makes such a huge deal out of our bodies and appearances that one woman actually feels the need to say something like that to another, that there’s a desire to “beat” another woman on that level even though there is no “prize?”

        It’s like the phrase “Real women have curves,” which never fails to hurt, upset, and anger me. It’s supposed to sound affirming, some kind of backlash against societal standards, but what it’s really saying is, “There’s only one type of body that is womanly, and anyone who doesn’t fit into it is inferior and worthy of contempt.” People who say it rarely consider that, though, and instead pat themselves on the back for being so strong and feminist. They refuse to give in to society’s demands about how women should look! They’re rebels, with their insistence that any woman without at least a C cup is actually a genetic mutant with a deformity, something less than female! (I once had a friend say that to me, the “real women” line, as part of a rant against an article about women being more straight-up-and-down, waist-to-hip-wise, than popular perception. She went on and on about how ridiculous that was because real women have *curves*, they have breasts and hips and bottoms, and aren’t built like anorexics or children. I just stared at her. It honestly didn’t even occur to her how insulting she was being.)

        No matter what we do, we’re trained to hate our bodies.

      • Jen Says:

        Dorothy,
        Your mom was abusive to you. It broke my heart to read about the way she competed with you. I hope you recognize that abuse for what it was.
        I bet you could rock a 50s dress with small breasts. Look at Audrey Hepburn! I wish I lived near you so I could tailor one to fit you. I tailored dresses for my small-chested friend in college. The dresses looked awkward on her until I took the bust in, at which point she looked amazing. Some people can’t wear certain clothes off the rack without a little customizing.

      • BadDyke Says:

        “No matter what we do, we’re trained to hate our bodies.”

        YES. Big breasts, small breasts, thin women, fat women, women who are too tall, women who are too short, women with large noses/small noses and so on and so on. We are conditioned to hate our bodies, and believe that our confidence is inextricably tied up with what the menz think of our appearance (or what women think the menz will think of us!).
        Don’t go looking for any sense or logic in the rules, reject all those ,’ yes but being fat is sooo bad for your health (which is why I can’t help going yuck whenever I look at you)’ excuses, the only point is we don’t make the rules, we’re forced to play the game, and we will never win. Because the menz have won before we even start. The dice are loaded, but we’re conned into keeping playing in the belief that we CAN win, if we just lose some weight, exercise more, find the right hair product……….

        As a fat dyke, I still can’t look at my body in a mirror. Even though I know WHY I feel like that. And now we have the NEW weight-loss surgery angle, another reason why it’s MY fault if I’m still fat! The fact that I’d rather be me and intact, rather than have horrific things done to my digestive system……………….

  10. oopster74 Says:

    You need something like the NHS in the USA, but so many Americans are dead set against it, and I just can’t understand why. Yes, you may have a brilliant medical system when you need it, but if you’re ill or ill too long, you can’t afford it when you need it most which is ridiculous! I know the argument is that you don’t want socialised medicine, but you pay taxes to fund the Police, the Fire Brigade, the military, so why not your health?

    I feel for ya Ros, diabetes sucks big time, I suppose I’m lucky in that mine is type 2, but I’m also lucky (sort of), that under the NHS, that entitles me to free prescriptions, which is a good thing as I’m on about 10 different meds (and that’s before hormones which I haven’t been able to take since my heart attack).

  11. gg Says:

    There are no criteria for getting access to transgender “treatment” except for self reports. That kind of shit does not fly with insurers and government health care. Insurers are going to start demanding real science and real diagnostic tests and that’s where the whole thing is going to fall apart. Transjacktivists will claim that they’ll totally commit suicide if they don’t get what they want, but let’s see what those suicide figures look like when they’re gathered and analyzed by epidemiologists and statisticians instead of trans advocacy organizations. There’s a lot of competition for health care dollars. There will be much weeping and wailing but the end of the day, limited health care dollars are not going to be allocated towards trans males cosmetic surgeries. Peak trans, here we come, thanks to the bottom line.

  12. Adrian Says:

    If the issue is appearance-related health problems which can mean the difference between getting a job or not, you know what’s the very first thing they should be covering?

    DENTAL WORK. And not merely of the “if it’s really an abscess we’ll pull the tooth so you don’t get a brain infection” variety that occasionally Medicare will begrudgingly pay for. I’m talking dental work that will enable people who are terrified of opening their mouths due to missing teeth – often due to poverty and lack of any sort of dental coverage for years – to resume more normal interactions with other people.

    There HAVE been studies showing that having bad or too many missing teeth is negative for job prospects, particularly for women, who for all the usual reasons rely more heavily on jobs that require both “looking good” and dealing with the public directly. And there are charities which provide such service for exactly this reason.

    But somehow it’s never high on the priority list, because hey, it’s just a buncha poor losers and teeth issues are “cosmetic only.”

    Meanwhile… Dr. Spack is in Boston, isn’t he? What does he think of all this?

    • Miep Says:

      Right on about teeth, Adrian. This whole discussion is so illuminating about who really has the privilege here.

      I thought that right off the bat about Spack too. Boston Children’s hospital, fucking up children and no local brethren to do the final work, boo-hoo.

    • gg Says:

      Oh and hey, hearing aids aren’t covered, either. We are given to believe that a strong jawline is going to be more of an impediment to employment than the ability to fucking HEAR.

      • emmajune Says:

        They can be covered if you can show you need them for your work. There is a process for it. So if you or somebody else needs hearing aids, I urge you to look into the process.

      • Jen Says:

        Whoa. One of my friends who is a lawyer was just telling me about a client of his suing his former employer because he believes he was fired due to his hearing impairment. I was fired for having a weak immune system once upon a time, and my immune-boosting drugs are NOT covered by my insurance.

      • gg Says:

        emmajane, it depends on the state. Some states do not cover hearing aids at all. My state only covers hearing aids for children.

    • WordWoman Says:

      Totally agree about dental work. Only the rich can afford things like multiple dental implants, which cost as much as a decent used car. Not covered by dental insurance. So people who can’t afford them will have multiple missing teeth. Job discrimination and the depression over no work or only low level jobs is likely the result, because jobs or not being able to find one are a huge source of depression and suicide.

      I’m curious as to whether dental surgery to remove teeth/when reshaping the jaw is covered, though. Something that never occurred to me before.

    • Zemskull Says:

      Hi Adrian: Could you tell me about the charities for dentistry? I know a woman who is highly educated in diverse subjects. She’s been struggling to find a decent job for a few years, and I believe that part of her problem is her teeth.She has a Jack O’Lantern smile, and has been unable to fix it due to lack of money.

  13. Miep Says:

    Thank you for all your good work here, Gallus. $50 Samhain gift just sent.


  14. Gallus, thanks for bringing this issue up. The rush among certain companies and schools to include SRS (male genital surgery, aka (neo)vaginoplasty and (neo)labiaplasty) in their health plans has actually been a real problem in some ways. On the West coast, there are only three surgeons who routinely do the procedure: Alter is in LA, Meltzer is in Arizona, and Bowers is in SF Bay area. Of the three, only Bowers takes insurance – the other two did the math, and realized they make more from exclusively operating on private patients.

    The problem is that Bowers is (anecdotally) well-known as a butcher. (On trueselves alone, there were half a dozen threads started by distraught ex-patients.) Whether or not a person thinks SRS makes sense in any circumstance, I’m pretty certain everyone would agree that an operation that leaves a person with total numbness in the genitals, extensive scarring, persistent granulation tissue, and problems peeing is medically inexcusable.

    And yet, all of the University of California students getting SRS are sent to Bowers, all the SF city employees, and many others on the west coast whose insurance coverage was mandated to pay for SRS!

    There is NO accountability or followup for this procedure. In the days of private patients, the doctors had some motivation to do good work (meaning: preserving nerve endings, avoiding excessive scarring and other complications), since their business was based on word of mouth. But with the advent of SRS insurance coverage, that is no longer the case. Can you imagine a surgeon doing ANY other type of work, whose results were never tracked? I can’t.

    It’s no surprise that the ranks of SRS surgeons are decreasing, because a surgeon would have to be either delusional or immoral themself to really believe they were helping people “trapped in the wrong body”. Anyone who has been through SRS or has visited an SRS clinic has seen first-hand how many straight-up dudes there are walking in the door – like every single stereotype of “man in a dress”, who is going to take the dress off when he leaves the clinic and go back home to living as a man with a neovag.

    I have somewhat mixed feelings because I think overall getting SRS improved the quality of my life, though certainly if the world were different I may have made different choices. But it’s a lot easier for me to imagine the practice of SRS dying out than it becoming more widespread.

    As always, thanks for your blog!


    • I’m not sure what granulation tissue is (and don’t want to know!) but just thinking about anything GRANULAR near my genitals has me sitting with my legs crossed. You’re right, I wouldn’t wish those type issues on anyone. Are they filing complaints against this guy. I know I had issues with a dentist and I filed a complaint with my insurance company. They eventually dropped him. Just from reading tumblr I know a lot of the people seeking this surgery are young. And, of course, they believe they’re invincible. They don’t realize we have to live in these bodies for a long time. 50 or 60 years with “tissue granulation” sounds horiffic.

      I know a lot of people are going overseas for surgery, and presumably that will continue. I just don’t think this is something health insurance should be paying for. Especially in these days of rising costs and rising premiums.

      • Dogtowner Says:

        Hi, Roslyn, granulation tissue is part of the process of the body trying to heal itself. When I had life-saving surgery, my wound was left open to heal by “secondary intention” (the technical term). This meant the wound filled with granulation tissue and eventually healed over. I assume this would occur with SRS due to the surgeon creating a wound in the patient’s body, and the body wanting to heal itself. This stuff is just all so crazy it makes the writing of sci-fi nightmares totally redundant.


  15. “I have somewhat mixed feelings because I think overall getting SRS improved the quality of my life”

    I think for some people (like you) SRS really can improve life. But I think since trans has become a trend MANY people will have surgery as soon as possible and later regret it.

    I’ve seen so many men fantasizing online about finally having a vagina. But there is a difference between their fantasy world and reality.

    If you really feel uncomfortable with your body and nothing helps to ease the pain, surgery is the last option. But if it’s just all about making some “womanly” fantasy come true – you might regret it.


    • I just saw thread (just 1 week old) in a trans forum where a male really regrets srs. He feels like his body is now destroyed.
      He was also diagnosed with depression in 2012.

      Apparently his doctors talked him into having surgery. This may be true or not.

      That’s another thing – people with mental illness. I think therapists should try to find another solution first before surgery. But I’ve heard from detransitioners that therapists fear for their jobs so really few of them will have a negative opinion about srs.

      One of them said that after she told her therapist that she wasn’t trans – the therapist said that she always had doubts that surgery would help her but didn’t say anything because her job depends on it.

      It’s even understandable – trans activists and other gendersick maniacs have created an atmosphere of fear.

      Of course this has consequences – like this sad case.


      • In 2009, most or all such procedures were unfortunately covered in my very “progressive” health plan, up to $75k. A surgeon at Stanford University was all too happy to remove my testicles. This operation cost about $3k, so there was plenty of money left over. This surgeon urged me to make use of all that loot and let him carve out a fuck-hole as well. Fortunately, I didn’t follow his advice.

        I had been “living as a woman” for 9 years by that point, and was *apparently* functioning very well in terms of my intellectual competence and mental health. I was “happy.” Any shrink talking to me would have said I was perfectly fine. My former shrink and my physician wrote the necessary glowing letters to the insurance company about how laydee-like I was.

        Part of the transgender pathology is a huge amount of lying to doctors, and not just about mood, crazy feelings and general mental health. I am sure that most M2Ts also utterly deny doctor questions about any erotic components to their fantasies/delusions. I sure did. Admitting erotic charge would get you labeled as “transvestic fetishist.” No estrogen prescription would be forthcoming.

        It has now been a bit more than a year since I snapped out of my transgender delusion. I now see very clearly that while I had intermittently been somewhat confused and conflicted (as a heterosexual male) about my body and sex role stereotypes, my actual M2T “transition” at age 40 (in 1999-2000) was an unhealthy way of coping with recent painful experiences, strongly enabled by tranny web sites, ignorant and/or greedy doctors and a hyper-progressive California culture. I was actually a severe work-a-holic all those transgender years. I self-isolated and never did anything at all socially. In 2009, I was very skilled in seeming happy but I was intensely lonely and sad and also fatalistic. I believed I would probably die within 3-5 years, and this seemed fine.

        Anyway, having regained my senses I am now in a much better space. However, I very strongly regret my stupidity and gullibility in thinking it was a good idea to let some maniac doctor remove my testicles.

        In coming back to myself, I have been incredibly lucky to have supportive family, friends & colleagues, a good job etc. It was way more difficult (emotionally & mentally) to “de-transition” than it was to head down Hell’s highway in the first place. How many other M2Ts and F2Ts who profoundly question their previous decisions but who lack such robust support now find themselves completely lost? I bet quite a few. A large Swedish study found that M2Ts (*after* their genital surgeries) were at 19 times higher hazard of suicide than the general population.

      • Jen Says:

        Get this:
        I just saw a MtT website describing his SRS, and he literally said that after the neovag was unveiled to him, he didn’t know the names of his new “vagina’s” anatomy (ignore the fact that he meant vulva). I mean, this fucker didn’t know the names for labia majora, minora, clitoris, clitoral hood, etc. He said, “oh well, I have time to learn!”

        After.the.fucking.operation. This was a grown man.

        Excuse my language, but I was incredulous. I could tell you all the names of male parts, and I don’t even want simulacra of them grafted to my body. It was just…well…I want to start a blog cuz that would without a doubt be some lucky woman’s peak trans.

      • Miep Says:

        Jen: the dissected dudes also don’t know that their inserted-in-the-wound-hole penile skin is going to turn all yucky with pus and rotting sebum/smegma and leaking bowel juice and Goddess knows what else. And smell and taste bad. So sexy.

        SRS should be outlawed. It’s clearly exploitation. These guys say yay I’m so happy with my new fuckhole and then ten years later they’re killing themselves in droves.

      • Jen Says:

        And they have to put these little capsules of probiotics in their surgical wounds to mimic the natural, cleansing and Ph balanced flora of the vagina.

    • kesher Says:

      There’s also a lot of complaining about the “gatekeeping” involved with transitioning, especially if the patient wants full SRS. Because you know it’s such an imposition to ask the patient to “live like” a woman for a while and take HRT for several months before SRS will be considered.

      Meanwhile, this is the very least the medical establishment can do to keep people from making irreversible body modifications that they may regret. So many people in the trans “community” (whatever the hell that is) seem like massive narcissists. They refuse to consider for a moment that there are other people who need to be protected from bad medical decisions.

      • Jane Says:

        LOL forever @ “gatekeeping”, as if medicine is just another service industry that exists to give you what you want when you want it. Even though doctors that cater to the trans have reduced it to that, they are supposed to do no harm and serve the common good, not the individual fancies of the mentally ill.

        I’m not tall enough to be a model. They need to do something about that, or I shall drown myself in a box of wine.

      • kesher Says:

        Another thing too is that you can always find a doctor to do whatever you want, as long as you have the money to pay for it out of pocket.

        I’ve seen people criticizing plastic surgeons for what some celebrities do to their faces, and I suspect there were plastic surgeons ethical enough to say to Michael Jackson, “actually if you keep doing this, your nostrils will collapse” (which they did). But wealthy celebrities can afford to shop around until they find an unethical doctor. I’m sure Jackson did a lot of shopping around to find his drug dealer doctor too.

        The real “gatekeeping” going on here is the expectation of insurance paying for these procedures. And, yes, if you want insurance to pay for it, you’re going to have to jump through some hoops. Deal with it.

  16. gxm17 Says:

    Women will never “win” at gender because gender is a man-made device created to oppress half of humanity based on their biological sex. I have taken to pointing this out at every opportunity that a women-hating, androcentric gender zealot is obtuse enough to exclaim ‘gender is between the ears, not between the legs,” I reply: Gender is not between the ears or the legs. Gender is the links on the chains of oppression. Stop supporting the oppression of half the human race.

  17. Juliana D Says:

    Okay, I am not joking with this. I was thinking about how trans want into women’s spaces, and if we don’t like it, we are called “bigots.” And bear with me here… I started thinking about traditional male spaces as a counterpoint. You know, the “Brotherhood” and all that, etc.

    Has any woman, such as a “trans man,” been able to join traditional male fraternities? Here is where I am not joking — Freemasonry. I know they are a subject of much speculation and so-called “conspiracy theory.” But they ARE a private group of MEN who meet in secret and have rituals, and women are not allowed. Women get relegated to another group (like Order of the Eastern Star) and do bake sales or something… For the men (masons.)

    It is a big deal to these dudes in masonry that they are dudes and exclude women. Why? If gender has NOTHING to do with genitals, why are women excluded? Why can’t a “trans man” join? Are these men being, I dunno……. Bigots?

    I actually googled around the webz the other day and there was no clear answer on masons accepting trans men. I suspect they don’t. Traditional male fraternities – and there are many – exclude women for a reason. And freemasonry itself goes back at least 300 years.

    I could be wrong – and correct me if I am — but I don’t think traditionally male institutions accept women, trans or not.

    But women have to open up everything to men, if they “feel” like a woman – our bathrooms, our lockers/shelters, our safe spaces, our music festivals, whatever. But traditional male spaces open to women?

    NOPE.

    Never going to happen.. Think about that.

    I think we should start protesting them as …bigots.


    • Women who call themselves transmen tend to fall into two broad categories, one of which is het women – they like sex with men – who are attracted to the idea of the gay male life (as being preferable to being a straight girl). These women do try and involve themselves in gay male spaces, but not with anything like the violence or abuse that men calling themselves women dish out, and not with anything like the acceptance or success either.

      I’m not sure whether many women try to get into male institutions, like the masons or similar, disguised as men though it is much easier for women to pass as male than vice versa.

      The sense of entitlement and desire to take ownership of women is something that drives men in a way it doesn’t so much for women, and of course a culture that supports men’s demands and not women’s. So it’s never an equally balanced thing.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      There’s also Bohemian Grove – I’d love to see a “trans man” try to infiltrate that.

      • Juliana D Says:

        I actually thought of bringing up Bohemian Grove! But I thought I’d be in enough trouble by mentioning the masons. (Seriously, ppl lose their shit sometimes if you bring them up.)

        Interesting fact about bohemian grove…. It includes a lot of cross-dressing (lady-face) as entertainment. Hmmm..

        btw, apologies for my earlier post here. I meant to post about this on the Smith college thread.

        Thanks so much, ladies, for taking me seriously and being welcoming.

    • Jane Says:

      It would be a good idea to play up this sort of hypocrisy to reach fence sitters and to embolden the silent, scared majority. Cultural left dogma being as feels-based as it is, you are unlikely to convince true believers. That’s okay, since they’re the smallest part of the electorate.

      Trannies both male and female know better than to fuck with men. Just like the sex pozzers such as Melissa Gira Grant who cravenly erase men from their analyses, the better to guilt trip women into doing their political shit work for them. Women, having been socialized into accommodation, are an easy target. We need to rub the cowardice of trannies and other sex pozzers in their faces.

      The left rests on the physical and emotional labor of women who get little thanks for their trouble. Lefty men and their handmaidens, like their right wing counterparts, are guilty of exploiting female socialization for their benefit. It’s more insidious on the left, being largely unexamined.

    • Jane Says:

      We need to ridicule these fake badasses mercilessly. “You claim females are horrible cis scum and such a threat to you, but you nevertheless insist on hiding behind our skirts and using us as a flesh wall between you and men. That’s because you know we’re actually not a threat to you as a class, but you pretend otherwise to guilt trip women into catering to you.”

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        “Lefty men and their handmaidens, like their right wing counterparts, are guilty of exploiting female socialization for their benefit. It’s more insidious on the left, being largely unexamined.”

        Fuck yeah this. Also, re: the hiding behind our skirts and using us as a flesh wall – know who else does that? Terrorists. They surround themselves with women and kids to protect themselves from attack. No, I’m not comparing trannies to ISIS, but…fuck it, maybe I am a little. Deal.

    • WTF Is This Nonsense? Says:

      I noticed a similar situation with prisons. Everyone’s trying to get Laverne’s cock into a women’s prison, but I never hear about getting a Brandon Teena into a men’s prison. Gee, I wonder why?

  18. femanon Says:

    So could I, as a female, identify as a transwoman and get a free facelift?

  19. Jane Says:

    Here’s an example of the groveling libfems engage in with the trans (click link for pic at your own risk):

    A libfem pipes up with:

    Sian ‏@siandart
    @Xanthe_Cat kinda wish I could take something to downsize mine, they do look nice.

    She quickly realizes how oppressive she is to compare having spine-warpingly large breasts to the agony of autogynephilia:

    Sian ‏@siandart
    @Xanthe_Cat (while also realising I have it easy in lots of ways and have surgical options if I felt strongly about the downsize)

    Phew! I hope I backpedaled fast enough to avoid a hashtag beatdown! It’s very privileged of me to have surgical options for health-threatening conditions! Bad cissie! Bad!

    • LC Says:

      That picture is terrifying.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Suck that tranny cock, Sian! Suuuuuuck iiiiiiiit! Good girl!

    • cerulean blue Says:

      Stringy hair on a reducing hairline– check. Lantern jaw–check. Five o’clock shadow–check. Ridged brow–check. But the teeny moobs are supposed to cancel out those secondary sex characteristics? Nope. Dude looks like Hugh Laurie in drag. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vwlJVNn3n1A

      • druidwinter Says:

        These guys need shoulder surgery and head/body re pro-proportioning to pass as female to someone like me. Even in this photo, his silhouette would look like a man’s. because women just dont have shoulders that are wider than their hips, even if they are really tall. Tall women have little shoulders compared to Xy males. His shoulder can touch above his eye brows, and possibly to the middle of his forehead. This is why they don’t look female to me. A female’s shoulder has limited reach- I can only touch my shoulder as high as to touch my ear, but since these guys The want to keep the balls & stick – their bodies continue to change and widen to this default male shape in the sameway healthy women’s hips get wider as they get older[unless they get sick] , no matter how much men try to diet and suck in that stomach or photoshop on a wide shoulder male body frame for an hourglass female figure photo, and they hope you dont notice the shoulders are wider than the hips, and they look like guys sucking it in to appear to have an hourglass waist…

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      That picture is revolting.

      Gotta love how he compliments himself – the narcissism never ends. And the name: “Catherine.” Oy vey. I roll my eyes so much now at these dudes my head must look like a fucking slot machine.


      • I showed that pic to my husband. I thought he was going to lose his dinner. I have to assume these people have no mirrors, and the fact that they post this crap online for the world to see proves it.

      • Teal Deer Says:

        It doesn’t help that their “friends” and supporters fall all over themselves to fawn and tell them how beautiful they look. Not that I expect a friend to tell them they’re butt-ugly, but yikes.


      • I don’t expect anyone to tell dude he looks like a pervert lurking in an alley. But their friends could tell him that there’s a reason most middle aged folk, of either sex, aren’t posting selfies in their underwear on Twitter! I know my friends would be like, aren’t you a little long long in the tooth for that?

        I think people walk on eggshells with trans to keep from dealing with their histrionics. Even more confirmstion that these dudes have a personality disorder, and probably ran off any friends they had a long time ago. If they weren’t so dangerous to women it would be really sad and I could feel sorry for them.

      • kesher Says:

        It’s extremely off-putting how the ugliest/least passing of the bunch are so preoccupied with how hot they look. It almost feels like something similar to a sexual violation, the trans version of a man sending an unsolicited dick pic to a woman, even if he has an extraordinarily ugly one. Getting all of us to submit, to agree with them that they’re so hawt, gets them off.

    • BadDyke Says:

      “while also realising I have it easy in lots of ways and have surgical options if I felt strongly about the downsize”

      1) BAD logic — if you have surgical options to downsize, he has EXACTLY the same surgical options to upsize. Although he probably has better access to such via insurance than you have……….

      2) Then you just have to explain why YOUR position as a female with visible breasts who hence has suffered the results of that ever since you hit puberty is LESS IMPORTANT than his suffering as a male without breasts who nevertheless knew he should really have them (or even his suffering as an autogynephile who was’t getting his fantasy fulfilled)……or just try and believe the same old shite which is that his suffering at not having his body match his jenduh is INCOMPARABLY greater than anything you could ever experience as a mere female.

      • Dorothy Mantooth Says:

        I’ve really been wondering since reading this post about those options via insurance. If this dude wanted to have breast augmentation surgery, it would be covered. How many women do you think get their augmentations covered by insurance because small breasts make us feel bad? (I’m not talking about reconstructive surgery here, which absolutely should be covered, no question, but augmentation to fix our “incorrect” breast size.)

        Mine are about the size of his, I think, from the picture. I’ve considered getting implants many, many times in my life. How many people would greet my mentioning that with “Good for you! You should have the body you feel you ‘ought to have! Here, I’ll donate some money for you and talk about how courageous you are!'” and how many would greet it with “How vain can you be? You’re obviously stupid.” He gets implants and is seen as courageously standing up for the right to feel like a real woman; women who get implants are ridiculous and vain and shallow. It’s horrible and phobic to make fun of the dudes for getting basketball-looking implants nailed to their chests, but it’s open season on a woman who does the same. Insurance will help him “be the woman he wants to be,” whereas insurance will tell me that I don’t deserve the same. What about the large-breasted woman inside me, struggling to get out? What about the fact that I always wondered when they were going to really grow, and spent years waiting? Why are his feelings that something is “wrong” with his body so much more important than mine?

        It’s “life-threatening” for him, but if I say the same (which, to be honest, depression has been an issue for me my whole life, and my body has often been a big part of that–as I believe it is for many women thanks to our Photoshopped airbrushed “real women look like X” society–I think I mentioned how I used to cry over being abnormal etc.) but if I walk into a plastic surgeon’s office and announce that if I don’t get breast implants I’ll kill myself, I’ll get handed a script for antidepressants and told to learn to accept myself and my body as it is, probably with a dose of “You need to be stronger/stop being so fixated on appearance/women ought to quit obsessing about this stuff/there’s more to life than appearance” for good measure.

        (BTW, this isn’t something that I spend a ton of time thinking about anymore, but throughout my teen years it was a constant, and intermittently since then it’s still been a HUGE issue for me. I don’t spend hours looking at push-up bras or enhancement creams/pills or those little rubbery things you stick in your bra anymore, but this is obviously still a sore spot for me. Oh, but I’m being silly; nobody cares how I feel about my body, I’m just a woman!)

      • born free & female Says:

        I don’t know how many times I’ve seen MtFs whine “If I want breast implants society doesn’t support me, but if some dumb bimbo wants to get big fake boobs no one criticizes her.” Yep, they say that no one criticizes women for getting implants while _simultaneously_ criticizing exactly those women.

    • ChicagoRefugee Says:

      Good lord, that goes to the hitherto unexplored territory BEYOND fivehead … To Infinity And Beyond!

  20. New Reader Says:

    Those aren’t nice-looking boobs, and he just looks like a weird man with moobs.

    The fixation the autogynephiles have on looking like us is starting to really creep me out. They remind me of the “pod people” in “Invasion of the Body Snatchers.” Except that these modern day pod people will never look like us no matter how hard they try.

    They will never be satisfied with mere SRS and hormones. They will want taxpayers or premium payers to pay for everything: voice lessons, walking lessons, Adam’s apple surgery, hand surgery, maybe even height reduction surgery. Heck, they’ll probably push for their credit card bills at Victoria’s Secret, Jimmy Choo’s and Frederick’s of Hollywood to be subsidized by the taxpayer.


    • “he just looks like a weird man with moobs”

      Because he IS a weird man with moobs.

      “The fixation the autogynephiles have on looking like us is starting to really creep me out.”

      Or when they try to be “lesbians” and get angry because actual lesbians don’t give a fuck about their “female” identity and disgusting lesbian fetish fantasies.

      • ChicagoRefugee Says:

        Yeah, that’s pretty much when I realized these people had gone past “mentally ill” towards the wide horizons of batshit insanity – when they started labeling gays and lesbians “transphobic” for not wanting to sleep with them.

    • BadDyke Says:

      “The fixation the autogynephiles have on looking like us is starting to really creep me out.” Even worse than that, since it’s not just how we actually look, but how the menz THINK we should look, or how they mistakenly believe we DO look (given most of them seem to have zero knowledge of actual female anatomy).

      I more than agree with the creeping out bit though, and the pod people.

    • Ashland Avenue Says:

      Didn’t Autumn Buffalo Sandeen connive to get the Veterans Administration to pay for his voice lessons? Didn’t I read that here, or am I mistaken? We’ve got homeless vets and vets with flaming PTSD, and that asshole feels no compunction whatsoever wasting government money like that.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Yes, the Veteran’s Administration paid for a vocal coach to help Mr. Sandeen speak less naturally. Laydee-voice lessons.

      • GallusMag Says:

        Now if they could just do something to cover up that nasty violent male socialization.

      • Ashland Avenue Says:

        Thanks Gallus. I’d love to know what the vast majority of veterans would have to say about that. I wonder if Buffalo Sandeen is still throwing hot liquids in people’s faces.

  21. mavi2012 Says:

    I’m Intersex and will need to have “sexual reassignment surgery” someday. I am a 35 year old non functional male, with the genitals of 7-9 year old boy. My body doesn’t respond to testosterone. So for me, yes this is truly “medically necessary”. I totally understand why most doctors don’t want anything to do with these people. Because in their eyes, there isn’t anything wrong. They have the parts they should, and they are normal.

    While, yes I do have Medicare and I hope they can cover the costs, I don’t see why they should cover it for those who are trans*.

    • GallusMag Says:

      There is no medical necessity for a male like you to undergo surgery after 35 years of (physically) healthy life as a typical man.


      • Look, I think we got off of the wrong foot here. Fist off, I love this website. What you, and you’re followers do, is something I wish could do, but I’m too nice.

        Secondly, I fall under the term of, “homosexual transsexual”. Even thou I tried to act “straight”, a lot of people saw through my act, and assumed I was gay. When I was twenty, I had a VERY straight manager straight up tell me, that if he was gay, he would totally date me. The first time I questioned if I was a girl was in second grade. It was about the story of the princess and the pea. I was reminded about how, if I even got ONE piece of sand in my shoe, I couldn’t go on, until I emptied out my shoe. The other boys, could get loads of sand in their shoes, and it wouldn’t stop them.

        I had a chance to work in IT, but I intentionally blew it, because I didn’t care for it. I stayed in the food service industry, and I NEVER regretted it. Honestly, I originally wanted to be a teacher.

        Even growing up, I usually had mostly female friends, even in church, where the moms always had to pull me out of the group, because it was not appropriate, because it would lead to “sexual feelings”. Which was funny, since I was never interested in girls, but could never tell them that. Of course, the wife of one of the preachers, suspected something was off about me, because I never acted like any of the other boys. I was a perfect child, and avoided any kind of rough play.

        Thirdly, because I DO understand what you are fighting for, I wanted you to understand me, which is why I tried to be vaguely descriptive. Yes, I am male, I don’t deny that. But I never grew into a “man”. When I went through puberty the first time, I went through a light female puberty. I’ve always been hormonally female. I’m only 5.7, an inch taller than most of the females on my Mom’s side, and as build goes, I’m about the same as Kim Petras.

        My hips actually have been widening in the last year as well. Something almost any transgender person would kill for if they could, and something medically IMPOSSIBLE for a normal male transgender person of my age.

        Lastly, I collect SSDI, because I was born with Albinism. I’ve been legally blind my whole life, and can not drive a car. I also can’t be outside, because I would burn. However, since starting on HRT, my eyes have slowly become a little bit better, and I can stay outside, for hours now, without burning.

        Look, I don’t care what you call me. I just want you to know I DO appreciate the work you, and you’re followers do. I have like four girlfriends now, who also don’t agree with the whole transgender BS, that’s being crammed down everyone’s throats, but are to afraid to talk about it.

        Thank you!

      • GallusMag Says:

        You sound like a typical sexist male pig in a wig.

      • michelle Says:

        Wait a minute? Did that piece of shit actually wait the full year for the ban to expire and show back up to spam the board?

        That would be Exhibit n+1 for why we don’t want the fuckers around…further indicia that they are boundary-ignoring assholes.

    • shediogenes Says:

      2nd post I’ve read in 2 minutes in which you’ve felt the need to describe your male genitalia. Spare me bro

  22. mavi2012 Says:

    I’m Intersex and will need to have “sexual reassignment surgery” someday. I am a 35 year old non functional male, with the genitals of 7-9 year old boy. My body doesn’t respond to testosterone. So for me, yes this is truly “medically necessary”. I totally understand why most doctors don’t want anything to do with these people. Because in their eyes, there isn’t anything wrong. They have the parts they should, and they are normal.

    While, yes I do have Medicare and I hope they can cover the costs, I don’t see why they should cover it for those who are trans*.

    Oh, and lastly this is the only surgery I will ever need. I don’t need a boob job, because I’ve had breasts since I was 10. Don’t need a face lift, because I look female. I don’t need voice surgery, because although my voice is gender ambiguous (not by choice, just how my voice is), I’m am fine with my voice.

    • GallusMag Says:

      Hey cray: there is no medical need for a dude like you to undergo “sex reassignment surgery”. You are male, and have lived quite well for nearly 40 years. Quite healthy. You have no medical needs and are not female sir. Please stop spamming my blog or you will be banned.

      *Update: I spammed your other six comments and banned you.

    • shediogenes Says:

      …and thats number three.

      • shediogenes Says:

        I will have to remember to avoid reading posts by mavi2012, aside from all the standard tropes, I have no interest in any info regarding his genitals.

        Thank you GM, for all you do, including wading thru all this shit.

        OT, but have you seen Zoey Tur, aka Bob Tur, aka “chopper bob” is about to become americas 1st mainstream news reporter. Inside edition hired chopper dude, gets the scoop on his ex-wife and all that shit. The ex says he used to be really macho, “…almost dismissive of women.” lol

      • shediogenes Says:

        I just thanked you for wading thru all the shit, and then gave you more shit to wade thru, sorry. I would post a link but my crap phone wont do those things

      • GallusMag Says:

        Wading through shit getting kicked in the face is my talent!🙂

      • GallusMag Says:

        Course some of that shit might get punched back into the face of the orignator! :0

  23. oopster74 Says:

    [Criminal online harassment #7 abuse and harassment from anti-gay stalker Sarah Davis of SLDModels, a male who conducts criminal stalking of lesbians online. -GM]


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