BBC Women’s Hour host Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud- but don’t call yourself a “real woman”

March 5, 2017

 

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http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/the-sunday-times-magazine/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/03/05/bbc-womans-hour-host-dame-jenni-murray-says-trans-women-arent-real-women/

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/our-work/blog/trans-women-are-women

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4282660/Dame-Jenni-Sex-change-op-t-make-real-woman.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/05/jenni-murray-transgender-women-not-real-women/

 

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41 Responses to “BBC Women’s Hour host Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud- but don’t call yourself a “real woman””

    • genderskeptics Says:

      They are already closing the comments section, have censored about half of the comments, I would estimate.

  1. CKDexterHaven Says:

    Wow, it’s very brave for someone so high-profile, and whose main employer is so unquestionably pro-trans, to expose herself to a witchhunt this way. I hope the BBC don’t make this an excuse to sack her and turn Woman’s Hour into Trans Hour.

  2. LC Says:

    I like how she clarifies that she’s “not transphobic, not a Terf,” as if she thinks women have a choice over what slurs men call them. Otherwise, very cool. I hope this is spreading in the UK.

    Annoyed that she felt the need to insult Julie Burchill and Germaine Greer, but… baby steps?

    • Leo Says:

      Indeed, like when women try to mitigate men’s response by reassuring them ‘they’re not one of those man hating feminists’. Never works then, either. The views she’s expressed will absolutely get her called a TERF, but rather than trying to avoid association with meanie TERFs when that happens, she’d be better off considering, if she thinks her own views are reasonable which presumably she does, that perhaps it’s the use of the slur that’s unreasonable. But, baby steps. I imagine the backlash she’ll get might have an impact… : /

  3. IronBatMaiden Says:

    I think she’s trying to play both sides, but st least she sees it from our point of view. At least this is being discussed in British MSM. Something like this would never get published to the Huffington Post, New York Times, etc.

    And unfortunately I’m not surprised at the backlash she’s getting. These trans activists are truly ill and need treatment.

  4. rheapdx1 Says:

    What did Jenni say that was wrong? Not one damn thing.

    Also….she exposed via her piece, a rather sad part of the socialization of women, that many transitioners have partcipated in before and then, continue after. Such as those about the visage, clothing and attitudes (at the risk of opening a major can of worms, the even more reprehensible, visual end of this is more prominent among the Springer or dq crowd, bordering if not crossing the line of logic, into outrageous). Bring that up to the brigade and there will be a shitstorm of denial.

    Dame Jenni got it right….and those of us who are t and get this as well, have another ally in stating the obvious flaws in the insanity among the cult. Those who argue with her on this, they are lost, like US drivers in a UK roundabout.

  5. atranswidow Says:

    Maria Miller are you listening?


  6. The backlash is coming! These males, emboldened by the fact that they have been allowed to say absolutely anything with little (if any!!) backlash, are going to bring their Tumblr speak into the mainstream and receive all the scorn they thought only us ‘uppity’ radical types would ever dare give them. The more journalists bring up questions only ever asked by radfem types up until now, the more women will wake up to this bullshit, and the less these males will be able to get away with.

    Though I know she has to tread carefully, what with her walking on extremely thin ice with this topic, I’m still a little disappointed that she didn’t delve even deeper into the sorts of things the gender cult has been spreading. Come to think of it… if she’s an older het woman she probably hasn’t come across the ‘cotton ceiling’, but she could have mentioned that the whole ‘no trans woman has ever hurt a woman in a bathroom’ thing is a lie, and mentioned the proven danger of housing males in female prisons. Baby steps, eh?

  7. rebel13 Says:

    LOL does she not get that saying “trans women aren’t women” is literally what makes one a TERF?!?!


    • As she will soon discover you don’t have to be a radical feminist to be called a TERF.

    • Leo Says:

      Lol, the first time I got called a TERF it wasn’t even because I said transwomen weren’t women, it was because I didn’t instantly repeat the ‘transwomen are women’ mantra and asked politely, as a genuine question, what makes someone a woman. Which made me a filthy TERF, apparently, and got me blocked. Funnily enough the remaining patience and willingness to consider their perspective I’d had didn’t survive that encounter.

    • carterabbie Says:

      I got called a “terf” for saying I didn’t like the prefix “cis”.

    • k.jane Says:

      I got called a terf for saying I was a lesbian and saying that I was not into dick. Cue the angry hate mail and the post-modernist bullshit about bodies being social constructions and how I need to examine why I don’t like penises. (Hint: It’s because I’m a lesbian.) I never really thought much of trans activism until I saw how they took over everything and how the Gay Org I was going to went from mostly lesbians, gay men in second place, then some bisexuals and heterosexual allies to being a “queer/trans/questioning” brigade. I also learned how SRS was invented as one of the many attempts to “treat” homosexuality and noticed that all those men claiming to be women acted even more predatory and creepy than the average heterosexual man. Not to mention, more dangerous since many of them have obvious violent criminal records but don’t get back-ground checked like everyone else because of oppressed snowflake status.

  8. ephemeroptera Says:

    I’m glad to see that Miranda Yardley was interviewed in this article and receiving more publicity.

    I’ve found this full version of a Feminist Current interview with Yardley to be a useful resource to refer people to (link is to 3rd section of the interview and you can backclick to other sections):

    http://ommadusk.tumblr.com/tagged/feminist-current

    Yardley has recognizable trans* culture credentials (e.g. self-IDs as a “transsexual,” writes on Tumblr), as well as honest, thoughtful political viewpoints recognizing the effects of male socialization, the existence of autogynephilia, and the need for women-only spaces, for example.

    Thus, I’ve found it helpful to point out someone in the trans* community with those views, to preempt the typical, simplistic perception of them as anti-trans. To say “I agree with the trans* politics of Miranda Yardley” can give greater social acceptability to those views, if you’re speaking with an audience who’d likely be skeptical or hostile.

  9. CKDexterHaven Says:

    India Willoughby, the MTT saying Murray needs a make-over and threatening to steal Murray’s job, is a prime example of what I call Loser Man to Winner Woman. As a man he was an obscure local news presenter; as a ‘woman’ he is writing for national newspapers and working as a panellist on Loose Women, a role previously reserved for women who were already nationally famous.

  10. Rowan Says:

    I am amused by the comic transwoman imagining himself with a female body and hyper-feminine proportions, submissive body language and sexualized presentation.

    “Woman” is really just a drag game to them, isn’t it?

    • FX Katt Says:

      “Woman’ is really just a drag game to them, isn’t it?”

      I think this is and always has been the whole issue. How liberals who seem to generally comprehend and protest the gaming of blacks by whites, of Natives by amerikans, of the colonized by missionaries and imperialists, of Eastern religions by new age entrepreneurs etc, manage to blank totally out on this issue which, to me, is even more obvious, and for the most part, more critical, is unfathomable.

      All thinkers, not just radical feminists, should know this, and why is it all the mind numbing takes place around women’s issues: pornography too, prostitution too, and reproductive technology to boot.

  11. Claire Says:

    Several years ago I came upon the  pornographic book published for classrooms and made easily accessible in children’s sections of libraries:  “It’s Perfectly Normal” by Robie H. Harris.  As you know, giving youth way too much information appropriate for their age and beyond natural curiosity harms wholesome development and education of youth.   

    For the most part, society acquiesced that pornographic books and programs are to be available to youth.  Parents were coerced into believing the ‘professionals’ knew better how youth should be raised. As a result natural protections of blush and shame were stripped away most often in classrooms.  It is factual that the evils of sexual aggression are never appeased.   None of us ever imagined we would witness the legislated “right and protection” to enter into a shower, locker room and bathroom based on one’s feelings.  As horrific as Harris’s book is, it did not contain the right to choose one’s sex – male OR female or 56 other varieties.  So what’s next?! 

    The majority of people recognize the major threat of removing the ‘natural right’ to separated male and female public showers, locker rooms and bathrooms. One could call it an ‘operation of error’ has fallen upon those who insist that the
    minority of the population have free access to male or female public showers, locker rooms or bathrooms according to their desires even if the majority oppose it.  To reason that this invasion is dangerous is like speaking in another language.  

    The aggressive agenda of people insisting to take away privacy not only puts all society at risk but also fosters upon they who achieved legislation for humanly designed new rights a life of emotional pain and suffering and increased propensity for suicide.

    If only claimed transgenderists (without scientific standard*) and all who come along side of them would believe that when the majority say NO to their impositions it is simply stating that the majority defend and desire that each and every person should strive to live their life to the fullest of human potential and not let lives be shortened and robbed of true happiness. Happiness is a God given pursuit we are all called to seek and uphold. An individual’s happiness never results in infringing upon another’s pursuit of happiness. True happiness bears no consequence to others.

    *http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02/24/watch-dnc-transgender-spokesman-tries-to-argue-science-with-tucker-carlson-and-it-doesnt-go-well/

    • GallusMag Says:

      Dear “Claire” (no idea why you’re calling yourself that btw),
      Thank you for leaving your troll comment positing that in an era where children have instant access to hardcore pornography at their fingertips, and website tumblr specifically markets to a crossover between the tween and hardcore pornography demographics, that Sex Education materials for 10-14 year olds is “the problem”. That made me laugh.

      I also thought it was interesting that your comment managed to evade naming the nature of the harm, who is harmed, and by whom, and why, related to eliminating sex segregated spaces of public nudity. Because “people oppose it”, and it “puts all society at risk”, and “the evils of sexual aggression are never appeased”. Huh. That’s interesting. So there’s no particular demographic being harmed by the “sexual aggression” of another particular demographic and the whole unspecific “risk” occurs randomly- perhaps caused by 12 year olds learning about mammilian sexual reproduction.

      I’m amazed that you (this is you) think you have anything to offer to this discussion with your mealy-mouthed sloppy weaselly dishwater of an “analysis” that rests on your belief that gender is good, reproductive freedom for women is bad, and gays are distasteful in the eyes of The Lerd.

      You’ve got nothing.

      Please refrain from posting further troll comments here. Grown-ups are talking. And good luck with your campaign to keep tween/teen girls from knowing what makes them pregnant. What a lot of help that will do them. /s

      • Do you like our owl? Says:

        Gallus!! How the FUCK do you DO that!? AMAZING takedown!!! Seriously, your sleuthing skills are unmatched! I haven’t seen their like outside of the hackers (actual hackers, not script kiddies, sys admins and hackers were who I was lucky enough to surround myself with. Good times, good times!) I lived with in the 90’s in East Vancouver. 🙂

        Geezuz you even found that awesome write up about how she took the book from the library calling it obscene and pornographic! LOL I think it’s HILARIOUS that 4 new ones have been donated! HAHAHAH One book gone but 4 new ones to replace it! LOL THWARTED! hahahhaaa

        I fucking love you. Seriously. The work you do is absolutely necessary and appreciated by myself and countless others. I mean, if it weren’t for you and Dirt I’d still be binding my breasts, taking synthetic testosterone and contemplating my nearing surgery date for my free! funded by Canadian tax payers double, and completely unecessary mastectomy. THANK YOU for saving me from that! Seriously!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

        I’m now a BORN AGAIN WOMYN!! (well ok it’s been a few years now haha) 🙂 And it feels great Gallus it feels great!!!!

        All my love and kudos to you! Keep up the FINE work! I’ve got my mom reading you on the regular and now SHE tells ME about the new article you’ve posted! LOL!

      • GallusMag Says:

        I’m so honored to have been able to put you in touch with the Radical Feminist analysis of “gender”! It is so important to share the decades of work women have done making clear the mechanisms men use to oppress us because of our female biology. Understanding how (and why) it all ‘works” is such a relief to a great many women -including myself. So… Pass it on! ❤
        And thank you for your comment. xox

      • Do you like our owl? Says:

        O also I LOVE HER! Shit…what’s her name? Zennia? Zamora….crap I KNOW it’s a Z name….Original Poltergeist lady but she’s been in so many movies. I had a cult like obsession with her at one point in the 80’s when I was a kid. crap it’s buggin’ me that I can’t remember her name.
        Ok ok I googled ZELDA!! haha DUH! Zelda Rubinstein. She was great. Love her. PERFECT meme for your dismissal of poor, mislead, christian dum dum….feel bad for her….having been raised pentacostal myself…Talk about cognitive dissonance about reality….girls, unfortunately ARE going to have piv sex…shouldn’t they at least have an idea of how to help themselves prevent yet more unwanted children into coming into this world? Seeing as how the norm now is unwanted unplanned children…..
        O wait, oops forgot my programming for a minute there haah JUST SAY NO! Yea that’s it! And you’re a sinner if you say yes, heck even if you don’t say yes…..ugh

  12. GallusMag Says:


    “Male Privilege was never a privilege to me and is not something I benefitted from” – Jonathan “India” Willoughby

    • rheapdx1 Says:

      REALLY??????

      Let me guess: this is the presenter getting ‘faced’ after being nominated for a Nobel Prize. Nah….it was another conquest of a media opponent or a score at a ‘meet market’.

  13. punkworked Says:

    News in UK reporting Jeni received a written warning for comments from the BBC. They will want to create fear to prevent others. Ironic how transmen are behaving just like men- colonising women’s space and identity. Pretty what defines a woman will exclude anything that excludes these Transitioned men.

  14. Janetwo Says:

    Obviously she has not learned from other examples, like Alice Dreger, that she is dealing with the Transcult. No matter how diplomatic and compassionate she tried to be, the Hordes will go after her in the most vicious way imaginable. Disawoving the TERFs is just a kneejerk reaction that serves nobody but trannies. There is no real feminism left beside trans exclusive radical feminism. Thats the only valid position if we are to keep our rights and our sanity. Excellent post, as usual.

  15. Rachel Says:

    Another UK-based heads up on a trans rapist: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/06/gender-sex-offender-bbc-crimewatch-appeal-attacker-could-living/

    I think we might be hitting Peak Trans here thanks to Jenni Murray. This vile individual’s trans status was acknowledged on the BBC’s Crimewatch last night, along with his male identity and photo.

  16. Oak and Ash Says:

    Jenni Murray may have bought into the popular definition of radical feminists as gratuitously man-hating monsters, and TERFs as women who want to outlaw the existence of transwomen (or maybe murder them outright), but her analysis of Simone de Beauvoir and her angry reaction to the transgender priest don’t seem very far from radical feminism. She also doesn’t seem to realize that her insistence that MTT’s aren’t women and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces is exactly what most transactivists mean by trans-exclusionary.

    The exaggerated rhetoric of the trans brigade in accusing radfems of violence may have backfired, in that those who believed them are now innocently offering radfem views–such as transwomen are male and don’t belong in our spaces–as mere common sense. If most women don’t want male people in our private areas, it’s going to be difficult to accuse us all of having extreme beliefs. I hope more women with public platforms say similar things.

    Funny, but I started getting angry at transwomen around the same time Jenni Murray did and for the same reason–that they all seem to be obsessed with hair, makeup, and wardrobe while having no more knowledge of real women’s lives than a four-year-old girl in a princess dress.

    And, speaking of princesses, if the average transwoman wants to be a Disney princess, India Willoughby seems to be aiming for Cruella de Ville or Snow White’s evil stepmother!

    • k.jane Says:

      While I do respect Jenni Murray for publishing her views and think it’s important for such views to show up in mainstream media, I do resent how she tries to play both sides and trashes radical feminism while plagiarizing ideas from it. I also hate the “both sides are just as bad” rhetoric that shows up. I do not know any radical feminists, or any other women for that matter, who send other people threats of violence, rape, and death over a disagreement, but the trans cult does it all the time. Murray trashes Julie Burchill and Germaine Greer for basically being “mean” but conveniently ignores the fact that they get no-platformed for their views AND get a ton of threats from the trans cult while doing it. (Threats which are documented on this website and others.)


  17. Great article by Sara Ditum,

    “I’m not surprised that the BBC chastised Jenni Murray over her transgender comments – this is what institutional sexism looks like.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jenni-murray-sunday-times-transgender-india-willoughby-a7616151.html

  18. GallusMag Says:

    Dear Carlita:
    I got the screen caps from a transgender activist that was “disseminating” them on twitter. Hope that helps, ya big weirdo!


  19. This is from Feminist Current which is always up to date, speaks truth to power, and actually cares about women.

    “Jenni Murray’s statements about womanhood are not bias, they are the truth”

    http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/03/07/jenni-murrays-statements-womanhood-not-bias-truth/

    Also, the comment section is always a good read.

    • Do you like our owl? Says:

      Thanks skylark! I’ve only just recently became privy to feminist current…I think I had them accidently confused with everyday handmaid….er….everday feminism….And never looked her up. Lately, I’ve been voraciously listening to her podcasts!

    • Medi Says:

      Feminist Current always seems well written, insightful, and well spoken about actual women. The comments tend to be a lot more intelligent the most of the stuff that passes as handmaiden feminism, or just the boring liberal choicey choice brigade that so harms women. I recommend it to all women who long for serious discussion!

  20. Jay Says:

    These things that these MtTs are saying about men not taking them seriously… I’m female and while I do get treated like a sex object now and then (something I don’t tolerate), I’m rarely not taken seriously when it comes to information. I can talk to men about computers, science, math, car repair, engineering, etc., and I can’t think of one instance in any of those contexts wherein a man didn’t take me seriously. Not one.

    That said, I wasn’t taken seriously when I tried to report a crime that two men perpetrated against me. The male officer lied to me and told me that the license plate I gave him was wrong, even though the female dispatcher checked it and verified the make and model over the phone before I drove to the precinct to make a report. I’ve been demeaned and belittled by male campus police officers and male state police on more than one occasion. Really, in any situation where a man is wrong, did something illegal or harmful, etc., is when I’m not taken seriously. My concerns are not just disposed of, they’re treated as if they’re an inconvenience. My concerns are the problem, not the men committing the crime, not the men being physically/emotionally hurtful. No. My being bothered by them is considered the issue. According to them, they did nothing wrong. I was wrong for thinking they did.

    Come to think of it, that sounds really, really familiar… Seriously. I didn’t even start out writing this about the behavior of MtTs, but that description above of having one’s concerns discarded and vilified by males is exactly what MtTs are doing to women and lesbians. Meanwhile, putting aside the fact that the definition of “woman” involves female biology and lesbianism is about female-female attractions on the basis of sex, even if none of that were the case, how could someone ever expect to be accepted as a woman when they’re behaving in this trademark, insidious way that women primarily experience from males?

    The turn of phrase “skin deep” comes to mind…


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